Are we in Oz unique in our overuse/misuse of "but"?
Give you a typical example....
Question : "Do you like caramel?"
Answer : "No. Chocolate's not bad but"
Believe it or not folks!
stales
In spite of intensive quarantine regulations being formulated and enforced vigorously by immigration and customs, it's crossed the Tasman. And it's as insidious as the possum ...
Well, do you add anything after the "but"?
Does the sentence finish there or continue to clarify; or is your point that they should use "however"?
>Are we in Oz unique in our overuse/misuse of "but"?
>Answer : "No. Chocolate's not bad but"
Usually when I am going to call someone that, I spell it with two t's.
Are we in Oz unique in our overuse/misuse of "but"?
Give you a typical example....
Question : "Do you like caramel?"
Answer : "No. Chocolate's not bad but"
But why the but?
wow
Wow pleaded:But why the but?
Dunno. Might be anastrophe but.
>"No. Chocolate's not bad but"
the anastrophe explanation makes more sense....
no; but chocolate's not bad.
I have it on irrefutable authority that this is a manner of speech, used in a similar way to how some Canadians add
"eh" on to the end of a sentence. Rhetorically, I reckon, eh.
out is the jury on this one....
I'm thinking it may be a way to ameliorate what you say, so as not to cause undue offense, as in the rising intonation at the end of a sentence, apparently originating in Oz but having gained widespread use(age) among American teen-age girls in the last decade....(?*) ['awaiting wet-noodle flogging' emoticon]
----
*insert rising intonation here
I'm thinking it may be a way to ameliorate what you say, so as not to cause undue offense, as in the rising intonation at the end of a sentence, apparently originating in Oz but having gained widespread use(age) among American teen-age girls in the last decade....(?*) ['awaiting wet-noodle flogging' emoticon]Oh, Gawd, are we back to Kylie Mole again? Reeeelly? Well, I mean, she g.. she go.. - she just goes!
The use of 'eh' as an ending emphasis on sentences actually originates in that den of all iniquities, Auckland, New Zealand. It travelled (well) across the Tasman to Oz, where it was taken up with gusto by the non-native native population and probably the native native population as well. From there it could have gone anywhere.
The use of "but" at the end of a sentence is definitely anastrophic, and does mean "however" or "as well", depending on the context. It underwent a little craze here a few years ago, died out, then got revived courtesy of a beer ad on TV. I notice, however, that it is dying out again. I don't know if it originated in NZ. Personally, I suspect those non-native native Ozzies again ...
These sentences don't have the level intonation you or I would use for an uncompleted rider: "Caramel's not bad, but..." (sc. but I prefer strawberry). They have the falling intonation of a complete statement, as you or I would say "But caramel's not bad".
I have to challenge the notion that the antipodes gave birth to the rising inflection. It was (and still is) the normal cadence of inhabitants of the eastern counties of UK, known as East Anglia. It possibly goes back to the Danish imigrants of the post-Roman era. I postulate that from the fact that Danish - especially as spoken in Jutland - has a similar tendency.
As I pointed out some while back (and am to ignorant to be able to give the link, and too lazy to find out how!) East Anglia was a prime source of immigrants to Australia (there were subscription clubs, charities and all sorts that provided money for fares to get rid of the blighters - not enough went, though; there's still thousands of 'em in Norwich alone!)
Similarly, I need much more to convince me that either Canadians or Aussies invented the terminal "eh." That has been common in London - especially in the southern parts - for a very long time indeed.
Wherever it originated that rising inflection certainly seems to have become much more prevalent among American teenagers as Anna noted. Was it ever thus or is it just a fad?
It reminds me of the disgusting habit that teenagers invented some time back of emphasising the "as" in "as well". For example: "I like Chocolate but caramel's good AS well". Did that annoying mannerism take root other than here in South Africa?
It reminds me of the disgusting habit that teenagers invented some time back of emphasising the "as" in "as well". For example: "I like Chocolate but caramel's good AS well". Did that annoying mannerism take root other than here in South Africa?
Well, being a teenager myself, I've never heard "as" emphasized like this. But I guess I only can vouch for the Cincinnati area.
The use of "but" at the end of a sentence is definitely anastrophic, and does mean "however" or "as well", depending on the context. It underwent a little craze here a few years ago..In Swiss German we have similar epidemics that befall our everyday language from time to time. Some twenty years ago, every second statement used to be topped with a final questioning "oder?". Neither deputies nor sportspeople were immune against this virus. Now there is the fashion of "natürlich", which is inserted in the most unlikely places, and it sounds quite natural, too
.
To reply to wow's question. "Why the but?".....
Because.
Further Comment on the original post...
Adding the "but" to the end is simple mangulation of the language through an unnecessary rearranging of the sentence structure. (Maybe that's what an anastrophe is - haven't looked that one up yet.)
Finally, to knock the issue of whether there's a rising or falling inflection on the head - THERE'S NONE!! As a proud user of the word (well, I know it's bad - but hey, this discussion has proven that it's unique!!!), I can say with with authority that it's delivered in a deadpan/laconic manner.
I'm still gonna use it but.
stales
In reply to:
Every second statement topped with
You get introductory words as well as ending words like this. Many years ago, when I was studying German in university, the fashion was to start every second sentence with grundsätzlich (=basically). Although I managed to keep from screaming after hearing this for the 5000th time, I ended up by never taking another German class.
Northern Territorians and Queenslanders are the prime users of the terminal "Eh" in Oz.
For this reason I jokingly refer to Chardonnay as "Queensland wine".
(Think about it)
stales
I brought up the rising intonation as a separate and distinct phenomenon from the "but" thing (which I have never heard). As illustrated by wsieber's "oder?" I postulated both might have something to do with softening the effect of what is said. Now, thanks to He of the Rhuby Slippers, I have learned that the rising inflection may pre-date Australian settlement, you know??
Adding the "but" to the end is simple mangulation of the language through an unnecessary rearranging of the sentence structure. (Maybe that's what an anastrophe is - haven't looked that one up yet.)
My name in vain thou shalt not take, stales (that goes for you Kiwis, too...)
>the fashion was to start every second sentence with grundsätzlich (=basically)....I managed to keep from screaming ...
I used to have a boyfriend who started most sentences with "basically" and end them with ... "and such". I didn't manage to keep from screaming. He didn't last.
Other fashionable words around that time were:
timewise, workwise ... everythingwise.
My current pet peeve is "enjoy" with nothing after it. What am I meant to enjoy? At least adding "it" would give me a clue.
Annastrophic pouts
My name in vain thou shalt not take, stales (that goes for you Kiwis, too...)You're not half bad, but.
I wish I could send you all an MPEG of the beer ad which kicked off a resurgence of trailing "buts" here. It was a hoot, although MaxQ was miffed because it was Speights, not Tui.
A deranged Scarfie claimed that MaxQ was miffed because it was Speights, not Tui.
Yeah, right.
My current pet peeve is "enjoy" with nothing after it. Oh, Jo - I do so agree with you!!! It is a phrase that grates on my nerves, too. After that, there is nothing
left to enjoy.
And to save postage
(and keep my addiction under control) I have been following the "but" debate with fascinated interest - thank goodness it hasn't caught on over here, yet - and I'm wondering if its use is as a type of phatic emphasis. It certainly comes over that way from the examples adduced; as,indeed, does the use of "eh?", from my experience of its use in London.
>indeed, does the use of "eh?", from my experience of its use in London
There is also the matter of the Glasgow "eh" (pronounced - e-grunt) which tags itself onto the end of every thing said. [note to comics - rarely have I heard anyone say "eh jimmy"]
I wonder if "but" is replacing "not", another irritating fashion.
jo complains: My current pet peeve is "enjoy" with nothing after it.
Rhuby concurs: Oh, Jo - I do so agree with you!!! It is a phrase that grates on my nerves, too. After that, there is nothing left to enjoy.
The version US'ns most often use is, "Have a nice day!" The proper response when insulted by the sort of boor who would dare to wish you well without being specific about how you accomplish that goal is to reply, "The same to you."
- and there is always the phrase, which I am assured was originated by the Chinese, "May you live in interesting times!"
In reply to:
and there is .. phrase ... by the Chinese, "May you live in interesting times!"
I have always been told this is a Chinese "curse" -- along the lines of "May the flea's of a thousand camels..."
I have been following the "but" debate with fascinated interest - thank goodness it hasn't caught on over here, yet - and I'm wondering if its use is as a type of phatic emphasis.Rhu, your but is phat, all right.
(Sorry, I just could NOT resist that!)
every second sentence with "grundsätzlich".."irgendwie" (somehow) is another of these tags. It originated, I suspect, from people being forced to utter their feelings rather than their opinions
. - Anyone around who remembers "encounter groups"?
Most mornings I have coffee with colleagues in a cafe in the building I work in. It was called "The Flying Dux" for reasons lost in the mists of its first owner, but now it's just called "The Dux". Unfortunately, "dux" doesn't apply to the staff, who are typically a mixture of odd and pretentious.
They are
trained to say "Enjoy!" brightly as they deposit your coffee in front of you. They're eclectic too, because they don't seem to differentiate between the cup and saucer as suitable receptacles for hot coffee.
They don't know the danger they're in. One of my off-siders is really ready to
kill! She mutters and stabs dark looks of unfeigned resentment at the unsuspecting servitors every time. Not sure if it's the "Enjoy!" or the use of the saucer that brings her on though. I believe it doesn't matter any more, she's just about ready to go postal.
even worse, in my opinion, is "Have a good one!"; I am left to puzzle out what, as with "Enjoy!".
How ya doin' - or -
What's up (ssup)
Nobody really cares about an answer, or they answer it for me with the same words ... I'm crushed every time
At least I'm not a stranger anymore
Worse yet, my wife and I (she more than I, of course) greatly resent being addressed as "you guys". In US parlance, a guy is masculine, as in Guys & Dolls; in British parlance, it's not complimentary either.
Rhu, your but is phat, all rightJackie - sssssh!!!! nobody is supposed to know that you know that!!
, my wife and I (she more than I, of course) greatly resent being addressed as "you guys".
Bob, you get a [stand up and cheer emoticon]!
Rhuby--I know nothink, nothink...[wide-eyed innocence-con]
Musick, you cute little newbie you, send private (if you want) and tell me all about how you are. I'll listen, if it takes all night.
I'm not sure about these days, but back when I was a young punk kid in my 30s "you guys" was common for both sexes. Sometimes women would only use it for other women but I've heard it used in reference to mixed sex groups. One of my favorite quotes was from someone who didn't accept use of the phrase in reference to females who quoted someone who did use it for females saying, "I've even heard guys use it that way!" Somehow he thought he had scored some kind of a coup.
>even worse, in my opinion, is "Have a good one!"; I am left to puzzle out what, as with "Enjoy!"
Oh yes. In my youth this expression had something to do with the sexual act. I tend to be bemused when I hear "Have a Good One! I always wonder why people who say this should have so much concern for my sex life!
It strikes me that if you used "though" instead of "but" nobody would remark on the construction. Since the two words are sometimes interchangeable when used at the start of a phrase it's not too hard to imagine somebody substituting "but" for "though" at the end of it. Follow?
Here's the putative evolution:
I don't like caramel, though chocolate's not bad.
I don't like caramel, but chocolate's not bad.
I don't like chocolate; caramel's not bad, though.
I don't like chocolate; caramel's not bad, but.
Presumably a few people think this sounds cute, the fad takes off and a new mannerism is born. Too far-fetched?
BTW I presume that saying "chocolate's not bad, though" is also anastrophe? If so, I'm thrilled to know that all my life I have been using such lah-di-dah grammatical constructions. [emoticon of a kugel preening]
On second thoughts it does rather take the gilt off it to know that millions of Ozzies are using it too - and more imaginatively!
>Too far-fetched?
Spot on, think I.
that millions of Ozzies are using it tooYep, happens.
- and more imaginatively!Now, hang on a minute - that's stretching things a bit too far.
at Marty, Marvin, Paulb and the rest!
at Marty, Marvin, Paulb and the rest!
Er--who's Marvin? And, my sweetheart paulb is not from
Australia, but.
Marvin was an illusion or delusion (see the appropriate thread). paulb is from Tasmania which, the last time I was there, my dear, is only semi-detached from Oz!
CK avers Marvin was an illusion or delusion...
sort of a giant Aussie rabbit, Elwood?
In reply to:
paulb is from Tasmania
Ah yes, home of David Boon, that freak of nature. How someone with his less-than whippet-like frame could be such an outstanding fielder at suicidal mid-on or mid-off still remains a mystery to me.
sort of a giant Aussie rabbit, Elwood?Yes, and therein lies a tail.
Max wonders:
Ah yes, home of David Boon, that freak of nature. How someone with his less-than whippet-like frame could be such an outstanding fielder at suicidal mid-on or mid-off still remains a mystery to me.But not to me. He's of "typical" Tasmanian build and attitude. He must have appeared to be a damned-near insuperable obstacle to batsmen. The effect of his presence at silly mid on was as much pyschological as physical! NZ batsmen hated it.
In reply to:
silly mid-on
Since some of you were so good as to explain to us benighted Yanks what LBW is, how about this colorful term?
...back to "Enjoy!" for a moment: that trasitive-arbitrarily-turned-instransitive irks me as well. What's worse, though (has anyone else experienced this?) is after the waitron unit has commanded you to "enjoy" s/he returns before you're finished eating and says, "You still working on that?"
(maybe I frequent the wrong establishments
)
Bob
I'm distressed that a sneaking K1W1 has seen fit to answer your cricket question. On behalf of all Australians, could I insist that all future questions of this nature are directed west of the land of the long white cloud.
Only Ozzies (and perhaps South Africans) currently have the right to speak with authority on this subject. Other nations merely pretend that they know about the game - a fact inevitably demonstrated once their team takes the field.
Australia has even had to come up with the 'Australia A' concept, putting a second string team into the international competition (as well as the First XI). We've had to do this to ensure that our opponents have somebody they can defeat every now and then - an act of benevolent magnificence designed to ensure that international self esteem is not completely destroyed.
stales
>international self esteem is not completely destroyed
Every nation has its own ways of maintaining its international self esteem. The main trick is to have a sport that no-one else plays then running a "world series" or "world championship" that no other country is eligible to enter. We have some rather fine darts players who seem to be able to occupy long periods of television without inviting any other country to compete.
Stales the Parochial said:
Australia has even had to come up with the 'Australia A' concept, putting a second string team into the international competition (as well as the First XI). We've had to do this to ensure that our opponents have somebody they can defeat every now and then - an act of benevolent magnificence designed to ensure that international self esteem is not completely destroyed.That's what
I said. Only the Strine could produce cricket teams like the ones you've got. After all, everyone's got to have at least
one undisputed talent, no matter what it takes to maintain the "superiority"
I had Christmas Dinner with one of the umpires from the underarm match. He said it made him so ashamed to be an Austraaalian that he immediately went out and married a Kiwi - my neighbour's daughter. Ahhh, reflected notoriety, I just love it!
A lovely friend wrote that he was going to a test cricket.
I found this a little puzzling, and a lot laughable: why on earth would anyone a.) build a model of a cricket;
b.)invite people to come see how it works, or
c.)go see whether a robot cricket works as it should or not?
Ok, ok, I have since found out (from another lovely friend--the first was too insulted by my questions to answer!)--that this expression refers to some kind of final or semi-final championship playoff round of games. But why is it referred to in that odd-sounding way? Why isn't it just called The Cricket Championship, or even The Cricket Test
(though that sounds pretty odd, too)? Why is the noun put in front as though it were a modifier?
In reply to:
A lovely friend wrote that he was going to a test cricket.
I suspect that your friend may well have said that he was going to a cricket Test (short for Test match). A Test is any sporting fixture between national representative sides, at least, it is in cricket and the rugby codes. A Test match in cricket is a fantastic thing to watch, it's like chess on a field, although for large parts of its five-day existence, it can seem somewhat less athletic than chess.
paulb is from Tasmania Oh No he isn't! (you can see the panto season isn't over, yet) He's a grand Lancashire Lad - summat tha' never grows out o', ne'mind wheer tha moves to!
The main trick is to have a sport that no-one else plays then running a "world series" or "world championship" that no other country is eligible to enter
But it doesn't always work. The City of Lancaster has, for the past five or six years, held the International Sedan Chair Championship races. Typically, there have been six or eight local teams as the only entrants. Last year, a team from Denmark competed. They did well, although they didn't win. But with this experience, they will return next year and win - you can bet your breeches on it!
A Test match in cricket is a fantastic thing to watch, Fantastic is, assuredly, the correct word for Test Cricket.
In reply to:
A Test match in cricket is a fantastic thing to watch,
Fantastic is, assuredly, the correct word for Test Cricket.
Absolutely. In what other sport could one see notations like this in the official scoring records for a match. Player X - First innings , XX runs (retd. hurt) Second innings (DNB - dead) I loved that one from the moment I read it, at the same time as I wondered what happened to the Pakistani gentleman who ran his colleague out on 499, in the days before Lara broke the Test record. I would have loved to have been the fly on that locker-room wall!
I've been a fan of test cricket since I was a boy - my uncle was a first-class umpire, didn't have a son and I got elected. Spent a lot of happy holidays at The House of Pain (Carisbrook in Dunedin). The provincial matches were always fun, not really taken too seriously. Whether internationals were fun or not depended on who was playing New Zealand. Wasn't allowed into the player areas for those, so I don't know just how good or bad the atmosphere was. One-dayers are too tense - it's win or lose and high pressure. Fun to watch in small doses!
Why don't you guys start a "weird sports" thread and leave us to our buts?
Poster: AnnaStrophic
Subject: Re: Cricket, etc
Why don't you guys start a "weird sports" thread and leave us to our buts? If they don't listen, shall we start a "girl stuff" thread and leave
them mind-numbingly bored?
I'm with you all the way, Anna,
wow
Why don't you guys start a "weird sports" thread and leave us to our buts?Aren't you supposed to be out somewhere in the northern States, wearing your cloak and carrying your dagger, in the ongoing search for the elusive tsuwm and/or his kidnappers?
wow, let's do it. I suggest we begin a thread on "meaningful relationships." That'll mind-numb 'em!
CapK, I am on my mission as we speak (I from my super-duper palm pilot, lurking and freezing my but [sic emoticon] on the banks of the mighty Mississippi). Cannot say any more right now. Spies abound. Roger, 10-4.
wow, let's do it. I suggest we begin a thread on "meaningful relationships." That'll mind-numb 'em!Yep, I'm always bored by what I don't understand.
CapK, I am on my mission as we speak (I from my super-duper palm pilot, lurking and freezing my but [sic emoticon] on the banks of the mighty Mississippi). Cannot say any more right now. Spies abound. Roger, 10-4.I've changed my mind (see the "but" thread).
It's far too dangerous. You'll be intercepted by the Tennesee Valley Authority and hung by your thumbs until you talk. About .2 of a second.
I've got a mission for you in Grozny, Chechnya, which will be a walk in the park by comparison.
They're eclectic too, because they don't seem to differentiate..
Rather puzzled by your use of the word "eclectic", I always thought you did need to differentiate if you wanted to be eclectic.
>Rather puzzled by your use of the word "eclectic"
I think he means "eclectic" as in saying "enjoy" whilst pouring coffee in your lap. Sounds a pretty eclectic choice of ords to me
Jo suggests: The main trick is to have a sport that no-one else plays
That's how I became the undisputed Shogi champion of Haven Hall back in my first time through (sic) college days. I was the only one who could remember which one was the bishop and which one the rook.
I saw the Australian film "The Dish" last night. It contained a perfect example of the trailing "but" as anastrophe (or substitute for however/though if you prefer to think of it like that):
"She's a lovely girl."
"Not much of a driver, but."
This usage is certainly not a recent fad, although you wouldn't want to use this film (set in New South Wales, Australia in 1969) as a source of accurate historical information, given the poetic licence apparent at times. I can date my first experience of the "terminal but" to January 1976 - on a bushwalking trip I met a guy from New South Wales whose use of it was so chronic that we nicknamed him "But".
And you've gotta see the film if you get the chance, for these reasons, amongst others:
1. Classic example of the Australian sense of humour (he says, at the risk of being accused of rash generalization).
2. Great nostalgia trip back to the Apollo 11 mission, for those who are old enough.
3. The soundtrack (mostly pop songs from the era) ain't half bad.
I just hope it travels OK - it's a bit hard for me to judge how it will be received elsewhere.
Saw it, loved it, forgot about it for years. Yes, worth seeing - as is "Priscilla, Queen of the Desert".
Seeing the flick was a pilgrimage for me, having worked as a geologist out of Parkes, NSW during 1984. A girl from my grad class was working as a trainee Astrophysicist at "The Dish" and gave me the grand tour one night. (The fact that she had an Honours degree in Geology with only first year physics was, both she and I thought, a bit puzzling considering the role for which she was selected!!)
Either the film people had brilliant set builders or they saved a mint on set costs. Although it's been 16 years since I visited the facility, the interior scenes WERE filmed inside the building.
I second everybody's recommendation that y'all see the film. It's an absolute scream, factually pretty good and a good insight to Australia of the late 60's.
For those that've seen it, is your place like ours is now? - every time my wife reprimands me in front of friends or guests I reply with a quick, sotto voce, "Elbows!!"
stales
CapK saw it, loved it, forgot about it for years
which is no mean feat for a movie released in Australia in October 2000 and due for UK and US release this year.
Re stales' "factually pretty good" comment, I did a bit of research on it today, and found quite a lot of supporting information provided by the Parkes radiotelescope people, and a lot of rebuttal from the "rival" Honeysuckle Creek (also in Australia) mob. Fascinating reading, but I won't go further for fear of spoiling the plot for potential viewers.
Ooops. Wrong movie, I guess. I remembered an Aussie movie about "guys in the bush" and laughed my way through it years ago. Just assumed it was the same one! After seeing Stales' eulogistic comments, it
definitely wasn't!
Sorry folks.