The English use the euphemism "French letter" for a condom. Their choice of "French" is easily understandable, as anything "sexy" is attributed to the French by the English, e.g. "French postcards" are assumed to be naughty. But why "letter"? Wouldn't "envelope" have made more sense?

the British prolly believed it was invented there; at least it was first imported from France. and yes, envelope would have made more sense.

I've also heard the expression "French purse" used for the same object, which makes the kind of sense that "envelope" makes.

anything "sexy" is attributed to the French

Hence, French horn, French leave, French toast and French fries.

French Sex continued:

French curve, French doors, French blue, French Congo...

J. Potter

Faldage ~

You omitted the French kiss!

Father Steve

Welcome habrotrocha (hope you feel like explaining that one some time!).

Truth is, we just attribute to the French the things that they invented. The French invented sex in Paris in the 1890s and introduced it to the wealthy and louche English and American people who spent time there over the next 40 years. Up until then we only had procreation so we didn't need condoms .

Condom is, of course, a town in south-west France on the banks of the Balse.

Oh, you forgot the French Curse - VD.

The origins of syphilis are not known, though it does not appear to have been known in Europe in Classical times. One school of thought has it that syphilis was brought back to Europe from the New World by the crew of Christopher Columbus's first voyage. The evidence is circumstantial, and based on the fact that the first recognized outbreak was at Naples in 1494 where a number of Spaniards from the Columbus crew participated in the army of Charles VIII of France. By 1498 the Portuguese explorers had lovingly introduced the disease to India.

Because of the outbreak in the French army, it was first called morbus gallicus, or the French disease. In that time it is noteworthy that the Italians also called it the "Spanish disase", the French called it the "Italian" or "Neapolitan disease", the Russians called it the "Polish disease", and the Arabs called it the "Disease of the Christians". The name "syphilis" was first applied by Girolamo Fracastro in 1530 from the name of a shepherd in a poem by Leonardo da Vinci.

My guess is that the phrase arose before the invention of envelopes, when it was routine to fold up a piece of paper and write the address on the outside.

I'll bet you're correct, Ted.

And condoms go way back, don't they, to Roman/Greek times? Weren't sheep's intestines used even way back then? In fact, could they have been used by the ubiquitous (in this case, at least) Trojans?

I heard it mentioned on the TV the other night that "condom" came from the name of an English nobleman who invented the modern device in the 19th century...Sir John Condom, or something like that. However, I couldn't find anything about that in Googling. But, I found this...seems "condom" is another "origin unknown" mystery akin to "the whole nine yards' or "the full monty". But, here, the threadmaster likes the Italian origin:

http://www.wordwizard.com/clubhouse/founddiscuss.asp?Num=3004

Here's something from another site. The English story actually goes as a "17th Century English physician, a Dr. Condom, the inventor."

>History of the Condom

1350 BC Egyptian men wear devices made of papyrus and colored animal membranes as phallic decorations.

1500's Condoms are made from fish membranes and lamb intestines and begin to be used as contraceptives

1600's The use of the name "condom" becomes popularized; named after a 17th Century English physician and courtesan credited with the invention.

1725-98 According to Casanova's memoirs, he was one of the first to popularize the use of condoms as birth control. He was also aware of their use against sexually transmitted diseases.

1843-44 Condom use grows with the invention of vulcanized rubber, making them less expensive.

1861 The New York Times publishes the first known ad for condoms in a US newspaper. The brand? "Dr. Powers' French Preservatives".

1930 Almost all condoms are made from latex because it is less expensive than animal membranes. <

For more modern addendum to this chronology, and the full site:

http://www.globalprotection.com/history.html

and this from "A Collection of Word Oddities and Trivia":

>SOME NAMES THAT BECAME WORDS

Condom. It is said that the device was invented by a Dr. Condom. However, most dictionaries have "origin unknown." The OED2 has: "Origin unknown; no 18th-cent. physician named Condom or Conton has been traced though a doctor so named is often said to be the inventor of the sheath." <

This is an intriguing page/site for linguaphiles, BTW:

http://members.aol.com/gulfhigh2/words16.html

someone should run a hogpaint® on this word. people would send in their etymologies/origins and we could vote for the most likely...

Papyrus sounds uncomfortable.

It was first used by the Egyptians for birth control among the large cats in their zoos. To this day we "reed between the lions."

no, today it's used "between the sheeps". satin, preferably... though flannel is nice in colder climes...

To this day we "reed between the lions."

...'reed between the loins,' too.

Does anyone have evidence of the use of the term "French Letter" pre-dating the Great war? (1914-1918)

It is my understanding from fairly extensive secondary research, that the British soldiers were issued with condoms for use when on their rest periods away from the front line. They were supplied in envelopes, for use in France - hence the name.

But my sources aren't necessarily correct!

Their choice of "French" is easily understandable
In French, the device is called "capote anglaise"...

Whitman, one quibble springs to mind: "physician and courtesan" an interesting combination, they were more progressive back then than I would have thought. Or did you mean courtier?

Suppose the "letter" in "French letter" has nothing to do with written correspondence at all? There was a time when the word "let" was a synonym of hinderance in English -- a few years back -- and one wonders if the hinderance which the condom posed both to sperm getting out and infection getting in might have led to its being called a "letter". I have NO evidence for this whatsoever; it was only a wild-eyed etymoligical guess.

My, my, my. Just THINK of all the things a "physician and courtesan" could do for the patient, while making a house call.

I remember reading that in the 14th century "dentists" used to distract their "patients" from the pain of their clumsy attentions by providing naked dancing girls for their delectation. So I guess it might be a kind of precendent.

Was that sort of thing covered by most 14th Century dental plans?

now that's something I could sink my teeth into...

Yes, although since I posted that I remembered where I read it. It was in an article in a dental journal (not sure where from, but probably the Zild) which took a sweep through the history of dentistry. Just the kind of thing a dentist's patient wants to be reading while he waits, I assure you. Not. Anyway, the commentary on the "practice" was written a couple of centuries later, after they'd invented printing. It was part of a Church pamphlet (I think) written to attack the ungodly practices of the Jews (who were the dentists in some German town or state), and it was accompanied by a rather lurid woodcut of the practice. Pure propaganda, and I bet it backfired something awful!

Schedule of Charges, Dentist, Lower Saxony, 1425

Extraction: Quarter of a thaler
Extraction with demurely dressed female smiling nicely: Half a thaler
Extraction with half-dressed female: Not smiling, Three quarters of a thaler. Smiling, seven-eighths of a thaler.
Extraction with a naked female drinking coffee: One thaler.
Extraction with multiple naked dancing females: 40 gold pieces.

Ah, these dentists. Every post a winning post ...

Nice one, Pfranz, if you ignore the fact that coffee didn't even hit Europe (Italy, at that) until some 200 years later.

"All I ever wanted to do was run a dance school and marry a Jewish dentist" - Goldie Hawn.

No anna, it was dear queen isabela (of spain) who introduced coffee to europe.. she gave up drinking wine as an offering, (as catholics are want to do, when making request of god) and instead, began to drink coffee. (it worked as a substitute, since in a goblet, it didn't look that much differnt than wine... and she did not want to banish wine from court.(wine production was an important source of income.. and she didn't want to harm native industry) so she drank coffee, and her court drank wine.. she eventually got her wish, and the moors were driven from spain, but by then, she had grown to like coffee, and drank it.

so it was a court drink of Spain starting in the 1490's or so.. and later the spain royalty brought it with them when they were there royal house of italy...
(but i don't think it was common in 1425...)
So you might remember her as the queen who financed Columbus, but i think she should be remembered for introducing coffee!

From the World Book Encyclopaedia:
Before its use as a beverage 700 years ago, coffee was used as a food, then a wine, and then a medicine. Coffee moved from Arabia to Turkey during the 1500's, and to Italy in the early 1600's. Coffee houses sprang up throughout Europe in the 1600's, and people met there for serious discussions. Coffee probably came to America in the 1660's. Coffee growing was introduced in Brazil in the 1700's.

This agrees with the following page:
http://www.koffeekorner.com/koffeehistory.htm They both agree with AnnaS that this matchless ambrosia found its way to Europe through Italy (ti amo Italia!)

Whitman, one quibble springs to mind: "physician and courtesan" an interesting combination, they were more progressive back then than I would have thought. Or did you mean courtier?

Well, Zed, that was a paste from that site, so whoever wrote-up that data chose courtesan.

Nice one, Pfranz, if you ignore the fact that coffee didn't even hit Europe (Italy, at that) until some 200 years later.


Pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick, pick

Somebody's rubbing off on you, Betsy ...

rubbing off

Lessee, at 300,000 kilometers per second, umm, 60x60x24x365.25, 31,557,600 seconds per year times 200. Umm, that's one sweet bugger all honking big nit, Pfranz. You gone need a copule more "pick"s in there if gone wanna get all of it.

Sorry Faldo, just short of time. Glad you have the time to keep up the good work, though.

That Habsburg-nosed despot may have had her own supply boat of coffee, Helen, but as ensuing posts pointed out, she had no immediate effect on its currency in Europe. sjm's timeline link is very good!

yeah, but.. coffee first starts getting imported to italy just about the same time as the medici's have an influx of their spanish cousins...

the spanish court might well have had an old existing network, left over from the moors.. it is when spanish royality moves to italy, that italians start importing coffee from the arab world...

i know my source for the information is a bit sketchy--i read it in a biography of Queen Isabela, (a catholic press book, a gift from my parents) i know catholic historians painted a world in which the decisions of catholics monarchs were good.. (it hard a hard time explaining queen isabela's treatment of the jews..) but i don't see any reason for them to lie about coffee.. (the whole subject was handled from the point of how could the queen give up wine, (because protocal demanded that if she passed on wine, everyone dining in the same hall would also have to pass.. the same sort of protocal still exist today with the english court) and not have a negitive impact.. her solution was she had a priviate pitch, and it contained coffee, and everyone else had pitchers that contained wine..and no one was the wiser.. so she was not only pious, but modest in her piety!

the book made mention that coffee was an arab drink, one of the things of value that the moor had gotten in trade.. but mostly it focused on how spiritual she was, how kind, how she sacrificed, but did not make her court suffer.( well they had to find something good to say about her, they had trouble explaining away the treatment of jews.. and the inquisition! (but that they credited /blamed on over zealot priests.)

I think the Spanish source is less likely as much for reasons of geography as anything else. Turkey is a stone's throw from Venice, a city that always looked East, even nicking its church from the Kremlin. An east-west flow of coffee seems to make much more sense to me, and to every other resource I have been able to Google on it. Given that its origin was on the East Coast of Africa, the Arabia-Turkey-Italy route would have been much easier than one that required it to cross the Sahara to be brought into Spain. The remarkable lack of dissent among the online reference sources, seems not insignificant either. I just can't see Spain having any legitimate claim to this one.

the name "condom" becomes popularized; named after a 17th Century English physician and courtesan credited with the invention

- and then we go to -

¡Café Olé! Nice one, Pfranz [aka Capfka], if you ignore the fact that coffee didn't even hit Europe (Italy, at that) until some 200 years later

- which starts a coffee thread.

So, what is the connection between coffee and codoms, anyway ... apart from the fact that they both begin with "co".

Are we just trying to change the topic?

Just asking.

In reply to:

---

So, what is the connection between coffee and codoms, anyway ... apart from the fact that they both begin with "co".

Are we just trying to change the topic?

---

In the immortal words of Yoda:
"Do, or do not - there is no try"

Seriously, though, the regulars here never have to try to change topics, it happens organically.

the regulars here never have to try to change topics, it happens organically

Do you mean "orgasmically"?

Is it just happenstance that an "episcopal vigar" obsesses about condoms and an analstrobic critic changes the topic to coffee?

Possible, I suppose, but most unlikely.

Wordminstrel, shift happens. Get over it and bugger off, to crossthread.

shift happens

I am just making an honest observation.

Who are we trying to protect ... from what?

Who are we trying to protect

Ain' nobody tryin to protect nobody from nothin. You can either accept the fact that topics drift about or you *could read the posts and see for you own se'f how it happened.

Who are we trying to protect ... from what?

Condoms are considered good protection. [crossthreading]

talk to me word boy, i am the one who took a single work in a post, and in effect changed subjects..

Capfka's post was more or less on topic, and then the corrections followed, and i took info in the corrections to change topics..

and yeah it happens.. we had just about finished 'french' as an adjective... there weren't any really intriging discussions going on.. and so people responded to my comments...

sometimes, a off comment will come early in a thread, and be ignored, and then later brought up again (usually by someone else.) and the first person who posted then complains about either being chopped liver, or a *micky mantle.. at that point, we either continue with the tangent, or play with the words mantle/chopped liver, or the thread loses interest...

you've been a round a while now--and you seem smart enough, haven't you seen this pattern yet?

Here marks the point of *conversion:

Extraction with a naked female drinking coffee: One thaler.

wordminstrel - It's an intentional creation of a defensive posture... a shift created with a *porpoise... kinda like building a bridge and then renting the space under it to a troll.

From somewhere in cyberspace:

What is a Troll?
A Troll is someone who comes to the message board solely to provoke fights, insult people and cause trouble.

And for a collection of definitions:


http://groups.msn.com/TheDebateClub/whatisatroll.msnw


~~~~
Now, then: what is a vigar?

>what is a vigar?

a vicar with a very hard see.
-ron o.

is a good 5¢ vigar.

>what is a vigar?

a vicar with a very hard see.
-ron o.

edited per a kind request

I don't think the vigar that got Mrs Clinton's little boy Billy into trouble was only 5c ...

the vigar that got Mrs Clinton's little boy Billy into trouble

Well, there's the problem then.

And who is this Billy you're talking about? The former POTUS's mother's name was Mrs. Kelley.

re:The former POTUS's mother's name was Mrs. Kelley.


that was after her third marriage right? or was it her fourth?

Talk about topical drift! from condoms to coffee to the pres. Oh, I guess that isn't so much a drift as a full circle.

And it stands for - Peck Of Trouble, Usually Serious. Faldo, I knew that Billy was a bast... that his mother had several "marriages" and that her name was Kelley. But it's a good line and I wasn't about to spoil it. You do that for me just fine!

The "vigar" is not obsessed with condoms. Rather, the vicar received e-mail from a chum in Lincs which used the euphemism "french letter" for condom and merely wondered, as all us word types often wonder, why we say it like that.

Should you prefer me to redirect this thread to a more refined (and even ecclesiological) subject, I am ready to speak to why the little silver bowl used to catch the water with which the celebrant rinses his fingers before mass is called "lavabo" ... but that might not be as interesting to as many.

the vicar received e-mail from a chum in Lincs

Would that make it a chain-letter, then?

re:to why the little silver bowl...is called "lavabo"

cause it is used to wash and the latin root in the word, lav means to wash? and can be found in lavage, (a medical term for washing a wound) or lavatory (a place to wash), even lavender (an aromatic, whose oil was used to wash). but what a about lavasious? or do you want to wash your hand of that?

lavacious??

it is used to wash and the latin root in the word, lav means to wash

Specifically, lavabo means I shall wash.

The source is Psalm 26:6 -- "I will wash my hands in innocence, and go about thy altar, O Lord, singing a song of thanksgiving."

Closely related, of course, to lavatory. Translated into Americanese as "wash room". All too accurately, actually.

I'd heard that washroom wasn't universally understood in the US. (It's what we say here when we are in "polite company".) I always hear restroom on USn-TV, and see it written on signs the few times I've been to the US (experience very limited there).

washroom wasn't universally understood in the US.

I could easily imagine it being taken to mean the laundry room.

certainly had an odd take on filling cavities!

for reasons that are paten-tly obvious, as has been pointed out a host of times, I'm sure.

TEd -- who never wafers from his mission to make the world a happier place through puns

I could easily imagine it being taken to mean the laundry room.

Yet, I've only noticed that *translation in areas where the pronunciation is predominantly "warshroom".

In French, the device is called "capote
anglaise"

Then there is the story : (with apologies for spellings.)
An Englishman and his French-speaking wife were on holiday in France when the wife had a heart attack and died. The husband was in dire straits as he spoke very little French beyond Hello and Thank You. With much difficulty he managed to arrange for his wife's remains to be shipped back to England for burial. As he was dressing to acompany his beloved to her final resting place he realized the rather rakish hat he'd worn for the vacation was hardly suitable for a recent widower. He looked in the dictionary and found the words "Chapeau" for hat and "noir" for black and ventured forth to buy a suitable black hat.
At the store, however, he mispronounced the word and asked for a "capote noir" - with difficulty he got through to the clerk that his wife had just died and that he needed a "capote noir." The amazed clerk regarded him for a moment and then, with awe in his voice, exclaimed : "Quelle finesse."

I'd heard that washroom wasn't universally understood in the US.

Nope. My church youth group volunteered at a summer camp in Ontario several years ago. On our first day there, a Canadian girl with a grimy young camper in tow asked me if there was a washroom in the cafeteria building. I had no idea that she meant a bathroom, and said "Well, there's a sink in the kitchen..." I got a very strange look, as you might imagine.

That was a close call for coffee in the keyboard, Rapunzel!

for reasons that are paten-tly obvious, as has been pointed out a host of times, I'm sure.-- Paten! host!
TEd -- who never wafers from his mission to make the world a happier place through puns -- wafers!
Nobody can hold a candle to you and the world would indeed be a drearier place without you TEd. I am, as ever, your fan!

Rapunzel, long time no hair! Welcome back.