I attribute this problem partly to my Indian background - where irregular and infrequent words, when used, were usually pronounced the 'Indian' way, but the fact is that I often have problems with stresses - the ways in which words need to be accented when pronounced.
For instance, if I am asked to pronounce economy, economics, economist and economical in quick succession, it rapidly turns into a litany of reflected-sounds-of-underground-spirits.
My most embarrassing moment was when I turned epiphany into "eppy-fanny" (it included a genuine slip of the tongue) and you can imagine the ribald risibility it evoked in my colleagues (who spend most of their time, you may be pleased to know, Jackie, in the gutter).
I also read somewhere, that whilst RP (the accent I affect) is often seen as authoritative in most matters of pronunciation (socially speaking, since we don't really support the prescriptivist agenda), it has strange lacunæ in its abilities. For instance veterinary is almost impossible to pronounce in RP. (I know, I've tried.) Most RP speakers, I suspect, either plump for vet or veterinarian (which has its own awful complications).
Does others have a similar problem - that of their accent making it difficult for them to pronounce certain words, particularly with regard to getting the stresses 'right'?
And how do you pronounce 'veterinary' anyway?
cheer
the sunshine warrior
In my training days, I used to show one of the John Cleese management films "Decisions, decisions" which, in one scene, has Nigel Hawthorne (I think) saying the word 'arbitrarily' (with the accent on the first syllable). It took me a few viewings, initially, to work out what the word actually was -- and, even now, I don't think it's a word that I would attempt to say in public.
>And how do you pronounce 'veterinary' anyway?
It's like my problem with colliery.
I pronounce it vet-inary in a light gabble, so no-one notices if I'm wrong! The usual UK cop out is to call them a vet, rather than veterinary sugeon (never veterinarian). I can see why!
I'm probably guilty of non-RP pronunciation here (
references please, people! I know this has been well covered before.) but my pronunciations would be as follows:
veterinary: vet-RIN-ur-ee
colliery: COL-yur-ee
arbitrarily: ar-bih-TREHR-ih-lee
(
but arbitrary: AR-bih-tree)
No doubt a spotless example of the Queen's English.
Shona!
Here's your selection with my (admittedly without any authority) comments:
veterinary: vet-RIN-ur-ee - I'd find it well-nigh impossible to slur/elide the second 'e', and therefore I arrive at (bold marking the stronger of the accented syllables) VET-uh-RIN-uh-ree (the 'uh' standing for the schwa - bother; where's that inverted e when you want it?) Awkward as heck, innit?
colliery: COL-yur-ee Again, it wouldn't be a straightforward 'y' at the start of the second syllable, but a diphthongal one with a hint of 'i' (or short 'ee' if you prefer) at the start.
arbitrarily: ar-bih-TREHR-ih-lee I think I'm pretty close to this one. When doing the 'posh', however, I might move the stressed syllable to more of a TRAHR than TREHR... ulp.
(but arbitrary: AR-bih-tree) Would never slur the third syllable if I can help it. (Get me drinking, however, and it's a differench shtory...hic.)
And no, I would never attempt to pronounce arbitrarily with an initial syllable stress... Ye gods and little fishesonbikes! Tell Nigel to go away and leave me at least partly content with me unacknowledge lapsi linguae (pig Latin for those who don't know that four legs is good, two legs bad!!)
Jo
Why 'never veterinarian'?
I find that word easier than veterinary. Or is there some social stigma attached to it?
Seeking sonic solace in London...
I have always been encouraged to pronounce the word,
"vetin'ry" - with the "i" almost as a schwa.
"Coll-yi-ree" is pronounced
"Dahn t'mine" round here!
(or was until Maggie closed them all!)
I would favour
" ar-bih-TREHR-ih-lee " as the
real RP - "trahr" sounds a bit phony.
My dear, sweet shanks--
As I said, I adore the way I've heard people from India speak English! Oh, the lilting-ness!! [if there were an icon for 'deep pleasure', I'd put it here!] But I understand, your concern is not to be embarrassed.
I have no problem pronouncing any of the words you mention--but keep in mind, how I say them may not be how other
Americans say them. (And, do I care? Not at the moment!)
Veterinary: just how it looks--VEH-ter-ih-nary.
Colliery: CALL-yer-ee
Arbitrarily: ar-bih-TRAR-ih-lee. Oh, and
Veterinarian: also just how it looks: veh-ter-ih-NAR-ee-un.
Perhaps I'm rather insistent on saying all the syllables due to a leftover from my childhood: my mother often said,
"straw-breeze" for strawberries, and my stubbornness kicked in an instant rejection of shortenings of that type.
That just kicked in another childhood memory: in season, a street vendor used to wheel his cart around the neighborhood, and I'd hear his deep voice bellowing:
"Stee-RAW-berries, strawberries".
I'm pretty much in agreement with your pronunciations, Jackie, but of course it ain't RP! you know, I just now realized that although the Brits are enamoured of all these aextra letters, when it comes to saying them it's "whoa nelly!"
that although the Brits are enamoured of all these aextra letters, when it comes to saying them it's "whoa nelly!" You mention this to a lady from Loo-uh-vulle?
>You mention this to a lady from Loo-uh-vulle?
do you mean lou-ee-ville?
or Lou-vil?
Common joke in US-- how do you pronounce the capital of Kentucky?
Lou-vil?
lou-ee-ville?
Loo-uh-vulle?
Jackie will be glad to share the answer!
In reply to:
that although the Brits are enamoured of all these aextra letters, when it comes to saying them it's "whoa nelly!"
You mention this to a lady from Loo-uh-vulle?
ufda! what's this got to do with taking a name such as Raymond Luxury Yacht and pronouncing it Throat Warbler Mangrove?
[MP ref #37]
I would pronounce these words in the same way as Jackie. A bit of a clarification though.
Here we use veterinary in two ways:
1) as the study, and medicine, of domestic animals
2) the place where a veterinarian works, but in this case we always tack on the word hospital (veterinary hospital).
Is this the same everywhere? I am getting the impression that they are interchangeable in the U.K.
In French we only have the one word. Just vétérinaire for the person and hôpital vétérinaire for the place. Perhaps this is where the use was picked up.
ufda! what's this got to do with taking a name such as Raymond Luxury Yacht and pronouncing it Throat Warbler Mangrove?As much as I enjoyed the reference, supererogatory is supererogatory, however many letters are involved, and the "is" in Louisville is utterly supererogatory. If u Yanx r so hot on dspensin with unecesary letrs, the least u can do is b consistnt.
Here we use veterinary in two ways:
1) as the study, and medicine, of domestic animals
2) the place where a veterinarian works, but in this case we always tack on the word hospital (veterinary hospital).
I almost always hear veterinary used as in veterinary medicine or veterinary hospital. If I were to refer to either the place or the person I would use veterinarian.
We say 'take the cats to the veterinarian,' whether we mean Dr Wendy or Cary Animal Clinic
Veterinary=adj. Veterinarian=noun?
>the "is" in Louisville is utterly supererogatory.
wha? I don't understand your point. according to The History of Louisville website "Legend has it that the town was named after settler Henry Lautzenheiser's son Lewis, but the name was later changed to Louisville when it was discovered that a Lewisville already existed in Monroe County." anyway, Louis can be pronounced Lew-iss or Lew-ee; Lew/Lou is a rather different name. St. Louis, for instance, isn't commonly referred to as St. Loo.
[quote]I have always been encouraged to pronounce the word, "vetin'ry" - with the "i" almost as a schwa.
Interesting. It is harder to imagine an accent further removed from RP than mine own, yet that is exactly how we were encouraged to say the word. RP and NyuZuld - strange bedfellows indeed!
In reply to:
the "is" in Louisville is utterly supererogatory.
wha? I don't understand your point
Sorry, tsuwm, just another failed joke on my part. Jackie once told me that natives pronounce it Lou-uh-vulle. Hence, instead of "is" it ought to be spelled with a schwa, the "is" being redundant. Mea culpa 
OK, all you wanna-be cowpokes!
As the one and only native-born resident expert on Louisville, KY, on this Board, I invoke my full authority as such in making these next statements.
First, if you were raised here, you say LOO-uh-vull, but in the same amount of time it takes to say one syllable.
Second--this city was named in honor of le roi Louis XVI of France, for his help during the American Revolution. He and his family would have been upset if we'd dropped the
'is', as was suggested. I know--I asked him.
Third--I was surprised that no one commented on the fact that Louisville ain't the capital of Caintuck.
Max Quordlepleen wrote: Interesting. It is harder to imagine an accent further removed from RP than mine own, yet that is exactly how we were encouraged to say the word. RP and NyuZuld - strange bedfellows indeed!
I actually blame the spread of Zild on today's TV announcers. They used to have to ape RP, but now they don't even have to be able to speak in English sentences. My (English) mother had fits over this. My (Zild-speaking) father was happy that all the pretension had been dropped. I just spoke Zild like all of my contemporaries (sounds of vowels being flattened underfoot).
I hear "VET-nary" most often. Usually, though, it's just "Vet".
As an off-shoot of this thread, I was wondering if those of you who, like me, have to travel abroad fairly frequently, find yourself using "verbal markers" to try to determine where people you meet are from? This really only applies to people who are native English-speakers in my case.
Incidentally, speaking Zild goes down like a lead balloon in SE Asia which is where I go most often. I have to consciously move to an approximation of RP and slow down. When I was in Dallas earlier this year, I was asked if I came from Massachussetts ...
Anyway, a few examples of the verbal markers I use:
For an Australian, I wait for them to use a word like "six" or "pool". Zild and Strine are very similar and it's sometimes hard to tell them apart, but someone from Oz will usually say "six" as "seeks" and "pool" as "poo-il". There is an extreme brogue of Strine which is unmistakable, however.
Telling the Canucks and Yanks apart isn't so straightforward for me unless they come from south of the Mason-Dixon line. I have to wait for an "-out" word such as "out" or "about" or "shout" - a Canadian will say "a-ooo-t" while an American will say "ahht".
Telling which part of Britain someone is from used to be quite straightforward in most cases, based on brogue. But I notice that more and more Brits are speaking in a flat London accent. Probably a false impression!
What other verbal markers to people use - or am I the only nutter who cares?
In reply to:
. My (English) mother had fits over this. My (Zild-speaking) father was happy that all the pretension had been dropped. I just spoke Zild like all of my contemporaries (sounds of vowels being flattened underfoot).
My maternal grandparents had a big influence on my speaking habits - I can blame them for many of my personality trays. I am grateful that they cured me of the Zild habit of pronouncing "women" and "woman" in exactly the same way. I hate that - I find myself silently screaming (sometimes not so silently) "it's wimmin for crying out loud!"
<"Stee-RAW-berries, strawberries".>
So did DuBose Heyward in the early years of this century and included it in his novel 'Porgy' which George Gershwin subsequently, and memorably, set to music in the early thirties as 'Porgy and Bess'.
...I was surprised that no one commented on the fact that Louisville ain't the capital of Caintuck.Jackie, of course we
all knew that, but since Helen set the stage for you to share your knowledge, this nacherly polite bunch sat back and waited
...I was surprised that no one commented on the fact that Louisville ain't the capital of Caintuck.Jackie, of course we all knew that, but since Helen set the stage for you to share your knowledge, this nacherly polite bunch sat back and waited Ah ... as the old joke goes,
who's this "we", white man?It's been thirty-some years since I could recite all the state capitals of the US of A. An' I disremember Caintuck. But I
do remember Kentucky. Capital is Frankfort, ain't it? Unless it's still Bowling Green, which it was just before Jackie and I were born. Give or take 90 years.
Jackie, have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?
have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?
Mer-SEE, you are up on things, aren't you, Hon? I are
impressed!! No, I don't think it is on display yet, but will check tomorrow's paper. (Speaking of which, I just checked Max's gift and learned that you are 18 hours ahead of me, so you are already in tomorrow!)
BUT--if I recall last week's paper correctly, the
GUTENBERG ARTIFACTS are now at our main library!
And I'll be there!
'never veterinarian' - some social stigma attached to it?
It's a Yankie word, Shanks, so the answer is she hestitates no, course not! We say veterinary surgeon (don't ask me why).
>new Cezanne
I didn't realise that he was still painting.
Of course Jo, it is a new painting method, slightly akin to postmodernism. I believe it is called postmortem. But don’t quote me on this, I might be dead wrong.
"post-mortem-modern"--
If the dead can be elected to Congress, why couldn't they paint, as well?
(Speaking of which, I just checked Max's gift and learned that you are 18 hours ahead of me, so you are already in tomorrow!)
Well, we have to be world leaders in something! It used to be rugby, but after Saturday's match, hmmm. Time seems to be as good as anything else.
BUT--if I recall last week's paper correctly, the
GUTENBERG ARTIFACTS are now at our main library!
And I'll be there!
Good old Gutey! I'm a printer by trade from way back, so he's something of an icon for me. I always thought he was a bit of a cunning so-and-so setting up shop in a church crypt. Bit difficult to get slammed for heresy under the circumstances, something a lot of his contemporaries or successors didn't avoid.
I wonder if the exhibition that's hit Old Caintuck is the same one I saw in Njimegen in Holland in, I think, 1997 ...
Jackie, have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?OK, hotshot, what's currently 'playing' at Atlanta's biggest museum?
Of course Jo, it is a new painting method, slightly akin to postmodernism. I believe it is called postmortem. But don’t quote me on this, I might be dead wrong.
I'm still chuckling, bel... it's a sort of decomposition, oui?
In reply to:
Jackie, have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?
OK, hotshot, what's currently 'playing' at Atlanta's biggest museum?
The Cezanne acquisition by the Louisville museum is common knowledge in the art investment world. I have a semi-professional interest in that. The mention of "Louisville" in the preceding posts simply triggered a memory from a recent article I read - and Jackie appears to be the sort of lady who would be interested in seeing a Cezanne.
I didn't have the foggiest notion what (a) the largest museum in Atlanta is; or (b) what is on exhibit there. I think I do now after a quick search on "Atlanta", "Art" and "Museum" using the AltaVista search engine. I take it you're referring to Elton John's snapshots at the High? Sorry, I gave up on him after "Yellow Brick Road"! I get the distinct impression he's more famous for being famous than for his music these days.
more famous for being famous than for his music these days.Natural synergy with 93.7% of modern art...?
Kudos to you, Kiwi. Excellent search. Elton's photographs ("snapshots", schnapshots). He lives here now. I'm not impressed with him, but he has an awesome collection. I have a semi-professional interest in photography.
I was just teasing when I called you hotshot, by the way -- silly me, I thought NZ humor was similar to Oz humor, sarcasm and irony a given, and expected.
*running and hiding*
>He lives here now
I thought he lived in Windsor.
Never mind, we get Madonna, you get Elton. Net impact on humanity = zero.
I thought he lived in WindsorOne overspending outrageous old queen is more than enough!
Jo and mav, I couldn't agree more
.
Elton's just a part-time resident here, I guess. For tax purposes.
In reply to:
Jo and mav, I couldn't agree more .
Elton's just a part-time resident here, I guess. For tax purposes.
Mr Quordlepleen, at least, will understand when I suggest that Reg Dwight would be better off dead for a year for tax purposes, the same as another rock icon, Hotblack Desiderato ... but then he is/was from another time and space. And Max will know where/when!
Mr Quordlepleen, at least, will understand when I suggest that Reg Dwight would be better off dead for a year for tax purposes, the same as another rock icon, Hotblack Desiderato ... but then he is/was from another time and space. And Max will know where/when!Sorry, CK (I keep wanting finish that off with Stead), I was too busy trying to arrange for AnnaStrophic to be introduced to the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal. Anyone who could even think the words "
NZ humour is similar to Oz" is surely a candidate for such an appointment.
hehehe... I'll take my licks, Kiwis.
I was too busy trying to arrange for AnnaStrophic to be introduced to the Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal. Anyone who could even think the words "NZ humour is similar to Oz" is surely a candidate for such an appointment.
Now, Max, don't get in a stew. You-all'll have to forgive us our trespasses--we just don't know any better. 'Sides,
she already ran and hid.
Okay, I gather that Reg Dwight and H. Desideretc. are "rock icons" somewhere on this planet? As in, 'dumb as a...'?
Whilst on the topic of rock icons--is this the season for
retro photo shows? Linda McCartney's photos are on display here now. Maybe her agent and Elton's collaborated.
In reply to:
Okay, I gather that Reg Dwight and H. Desideretc. are "rock icons" somewhere on this planet? As in, 'dumb as a...'?
As my last post for two days (yrch!), I shall enlighten you. Reginald Dwight is the birth name of Elton John, and Hotblack Desiderato is a character from The Hitch-Hikers' Guide to the Galaxy, he was a rock group manager/agent, who spent a year dead for tax reasons.
L'ex portantino di un ospedale inglese, oggi cinquantaduenne, partecipa occasionalmente a film di fantascienza di serie Z e a telefilm. Ha avuto un piccolo ruoto (come guardia del corpo di Hotblack Desiato) nella riduzione televisiva della Guida Galattica per gli Autostoppisti.
In reply to:
L'ex portantino di un ospedale inglese, oggi cinquantaduenne, partecipa occasionalmente a film di fantascienza di serie Z e a telefilm. Ha avuto un piccolo ruoto (come guardia del corpo di Hotblack Desiato) nella riduzione televisiva della Guida Galattica per gli Autostoppisti.
Hi Father Steve ... From the post title (Hotblack Desiato) - thanks for the correction; it's probably 15 years since I read the book - plus the occasion word picked out of the text, I would assume that your Italian post has something to do with the HHGTTG series. It is unique, of course, in that there are five books in the trilogy. But my Italian has never progressed much beyond "spaghetti", "ravioli" and other grastronomic terms, so I'd appreciate it if you'd translate it into English!
But my Italian has never progressed much beyond "spaghetti", "ravioli" and other grastronomic terms, so I'd appreciate it if you'd translate it into English!
Here you go...
The ex portantino of an English hospital, cinquantaduenne, participates today occasionally in film of science fiction of serious Zs and to telefilm. You/he/she has had a small I rotate (as watch of the body of Hotblack Desiato) in the television reduction of the Guide Galattica for the Hitchhikers.
No further comment required, surely...
You/he/she has had a small I rotate (as watch of the body of Hotblack Desiato)Perhaps a day will come when we can read the output from translation software with straight faces - but our lives will be very much poorer when that day comes! I'm so glad that the people responsible didn't wait on petty little matters like reliability and accuracy before releasing Babelfish into the open ocean.
Incidentally, I wonder if Douglas Adams has been paid anything for use of the name
Babelfish?
And talking of HHGTTG again - Auntie, you needn't fear the Bugblatter Beast of Traal as long as you have a towel you can hide underneath. If you can't see it, it's so stupid it believes it can't see you. Correct remembering, Max?
(..and of course the Bugblatter Beast is a mere pussycat by comparison to some felines)
I'm certain Babelfish and Ænigma are part of the same vast evil conspiracy.
And thanks for all the towels, Fish
>I'm certain Babelfish and Ænigma are part of the same vast evil conspiracy.
oh my yes, and that's Ævil with a capital Æ.
In reply to:
The ex portantino of an English hospital, cinquantaduenne, participates today occasionally in film of science fiction of serious Zs and to telefilm. You/he/she has had a small I rotate (as watch of the body of Hotblack Desiato) in the television reduction of the Guide Galattica for the Hitchhikers.
Thanks Shanks. That make it all perfectly clear. I, for one, always like to know where my towel is.
I just looked behind my computer tower (where all of the dust-bunnies and Snickers wrappers go to live) and found a small, hard-to-read label which says "Another fine product of the Sirrius Cybernetics Corporation."
and found a small, hard-to-read label which says "Another fine product of the Sirrius Cybernetics Corporation."I would complain about the supererogatory "r" inserted into "Sirius" - but you would probably just RESPOND WITH, "GO STICK YOUR HEAD IN A PIG"
The true problem in that translation was that there was a mistake ( a misprinting) in the original text:
"Ha avuto un piccolo ruoto (come guardia del corpo di Hotblack Desiato) "
It has to be:
"Ha avuto un piccolo ruolo (come guardia del corpo di Hotblack Desiato) "
It means
He played a small part ( as the body guard of HD ).
Is it OK now?
Ciao
Emanuela
Emanuela
I'm not sure whether to thank you for the clarification, or to deplore the fact that, now it is clear, it doesn't sound as wonderfully surreal as it did. Any chance we could trouble you for a decent rendition of the entire paragraph?
Shanks, I can try to give " a decent rendition", even if it is clear - even in this simple case - that it will require a lot of explanations - I don't think that a translation software can take into account of the whole context...
So
That man - who was before working in an English Hospital as "portantino" ( see below)- 52 years old - works today sometimes in science fiction movies of "serie Z" (see below) and in telefilms (?? I don’t know if this is an English noun, we use this as "movie for TV") . He played a small part ( as the body guard of Hotblack Desiato) in a TV movie based on the ...
Portantino ( from portare , to bring) works carrying people who cannot walk by themselves
Something of Serie Z: the worst kind of that - since footbaal games are organized in
Serie A (the best)
Serie B ( just below)
and so on...
Serie Z does not exist, but it suggests that you cannot find anything worst...
Boring explanation, and - I imagine - no longer surreal charme at all!
Ciao
Emanuela
So Serie A - like the English Premier League or First Division - is not exclusive to football?
And at least it was interesting inasmuch as I finally figured out that the paragraph was not about Hotblack Desiato, but about an actor (which actor?) playing him.
Thanks for that.
The actor wasn't playing Hotblack, but Hotblack's bodyguard (probably not a major role from what I can remember).
Bingley
Jackie, have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?According to this morning's news, it is Java where you have to go to get "new" Cezannes - and Utrillos, Chagalls and Goyas. A large stash of famous paintings are on sale, purporting to have been bought from old plantation houses in Indonesia (or some such) and all of them genuine, of course.
Perhaps Bingley has a line on this?
My point is, of course, that there is not (I sincerely hope) a "new" Cezanne being displayed in Louisville - just their latest acquisition of an old one
The auction was supposed to include works by Picasso, Renoir, and van Gogh, which had been stashed away carefully when the Japanese invaded in the Second World War and had now reappeared, plus works by various Indonesian artists. As some of the works alleged to have vanished are now in European and American museums it didn't take too long for people to realise there might be less to these works that met the eye. The auction has now been cancelled.
Follow this url for The Jakarta Post's account (in English):
http://www.thejakartapost.com/detailheadlines.asp?fileid=20001125.@02&irec=1 Bingley
> Jackie, have you been to the Louisville museum to see the new Cezanne?
We had joy, we had fun, we had Cezannes in the sun.....
We had joy, we had fun, we had Cezannes in the sun.....
And the world, don't you see, is so beautiful to me.
Terry Jacks, I think. Bubble-gum, but apt in my case.
At least the museum owns this painting. When the Armand Hammer collection traveled through, it was now museum,
now you don't.