I'm looking for two words
1) something that's maybe more specific than 'genre', but maybe a little more broad than 'remake.' 'Retelling' is almost the word.

2) a word describing an partial enumeration of such sets . (This is the main thing I'm interested in.)


Examples of item 1
a. The movie Roxeanne is a retelling of Cyrano Debergerac.
b. The Magnificent Seven is a retelling of The Seven Samurai.

However, I want to include things like:
c. Heist is very similar to The Score is very similar to Oceans Eleven which is a remake of a movie by the same name.
d. The Ring is a remake Ringu.
e. The Prime Gig is vaguely similar to The Grifters is vaguely similar to The Sting. (Connection is a little less firm than the previous cases.)

Possible:
f. Brother Cadfael is kinda similar to The Name of the Rose. (Even more tenuous association.)

The relation COULD BE, BUT NEED NOT BE broad enough to include
g. Cryptonomicon is similar to The Flanders Panel (in that both books describe events that happen in different times but are somehow connected).
h. Is Alien the same story as The Thing?

I'm looking for name-of-relation(A1, A2, ..., An) where Ai is a book or movie and 'name-of-relation' can be 'is kinda similar to' or 'is a remake of'.

Context. I'm trying to look up things that are similar to other things since I'd like to watch those movies with my kids - but I'm not sure what to call the thing I'm looking for. Something like the listing on Amazon where it says, "Customers who bought this, also bought this," except I want a bit of a stronger connection.

Obviously the items in the same sets above are generally in the same genre, but they don't need to be. I don't think The Magnificent Seven is the same genre as The Seven Samurai.

It seems to me the people who like movies would almost certainly have a name for item 2, the list of sets that are similar like this. I asked at a local blockbuster and the guys told me they thought such a thing would be useful, but they didn't think it existed.

k

I think your retelling and remake both work well for reasons you gave. Can't add another word that will get you closer to the genre term you're seeking.

I checked Google and found both terms freely used in many artcles about films and movies.

Would you include 'revisionist' remaking when a movie is made to retell a story, but with a distinctly new point of view?

revisionist

Revisionist has, I fear, taken on a negative connotation from those who would have their histories as they learned them and we don't want our heroes besmirched thank-you-very-much.

how about reiterate it does mean repeating, but also retelling..
West Side Story reiterates the old story of love and loss, as classicly told in Romeo and Juliette...

Reiteration works for me. Even if not in common use among afficionados, it seems apt. Not too broad. Not too general. This leaves me with the more important question of "Does there exist a list of such reiterations and, if it does, where does one find it?"


k

The recent Psycho was a shot-by-shot remake of the Hitchcock original (*Some things should just be left alone, and I think Hitchcock is one of them, but...) And I believe this was the only time this shot-by-shot remake technique was ever attempted, and, so, I think that precludes the connotation of remake, since a remake necessarily involves some reworking of the original to qualify as a re-make. That's why I think the new Psycho needs its own new term. (I'm not saying all old classics shouldn't be touched...just certain ones...I enjoyed the Jeff Goldblum version of the SF classic, "The Fly," as much as I liked the Vincent Price original, for instance--and the Jessica Lange King Kong was an interesting treatment. But there's been recent talk of remaking Casablanca, and I say, 'no!no!no!...leave that one alone!' And, for instance, how could you redo The African Queen without Hepburn and Bogart?...why bother? And a stage adaptation of a movie is one thing, like The Wiz, from The Wizard of Oz, and that's fine...but I've heard new whispers about an Oz film remake...oh, no, they wouldn't dare, would they?...perish the thought...shudder.

But as far as a term, FF, I've always heard remake...then there's "a reworking", and sometimes you'll hear, "an updated version." Sometimes retelling. But I can see the nuance you're attempting to capture here, and it's a bit evasive to put a finger on.

And many theatre classics have been restaged...in the theatre it's a restaging...Shakespeare, of course, being the foremost example. I recall there was even a famous production of Hamlet staged in business suits in a modern setting (might've been an Olivier production, but I'm not sure)...but it was still Hamlet.

This is from the film glossary at http://allmovie.com, FF...found it while looking for a list:

>Film Glossary

Remake

When a motion picture covering a particular subject matter is produced again with the same narrative and subject matter. "The Jazz Singer" was originally produced in 1927 with Al Jolson. It was produced in 1953 with Danny Thomas and again in 1980 with Neil Diamond.<

Here's a page from the same site, "The All Movie Guide", FF, with extensive "movie maps" of all the genres. Interestingly enough, on such a comprehensive film site, there seems to be no link specifically for remakes. Perhaps the webmasters there would come up with a "remake map" if it were suggested to them.

http://www.allmovie.com/cg/avg.dll?p=avg&sql=U0

heya! I've already got something cool from that site. didn't realize there were more than two "thin man" movies. I love those!

great pointer, thanks,
k

Hey. They cranked them babies out one a year for a long time. Neat sucker trivia question: Who played the title role in the first Thin Man movie?

No idea. I don't know too much about movies, actors, television programs. But some things I just learn about by accident.

k

Father of the bride,(1950 something) with Liz taylor as the bride, and the remake (1990 something) were almost word for word identical, the main difference was they add 1 or 2 extra zeros to all dollar amounts, and the role of wedding planner in the first was played by a woman, in the second by a man...

Sabrina, was an other almost identical remake (well they changed Sabrina's career from chef to fashion photographer, but some things.. ("Plastics!") didn't change.. and the original had bogart as the "hard hearted business man brother" and the new one, had Harrison Ford..(the corporate headquaters moved uptown, in the new film, but it looks like the used the same house on long Island Gold coast in both movies.

Cape Fear, either version, or "the Post Man rings twice" are great films..

some times NY museums play films like this back to back -- its fun to see how the remakes changed.. some times the old films are great, othertimes, the new film have "new' levels of terror...
I didn't like the remake of "double jepardy" since even a crumby lawyer should have demanded "DNA test of the blood" and it should have been evident that something was wrong, and its not as easy to day to "remake" oneself, since computerized credit histories follow you, and large cash transactions get scrutiny...

Re-work and even reiterate both indicate the same story done over. The requested word would also indicate a similar theme and style but not necessarily the same story.

There have been various suggestions as to the number of basic plots in literature, and therefore I would suppose in film. The number proposed has varied from 1 to 69. If we take the twenty suggested by RB Tobias as a fair compromise (though personally I prefer the 7 that are usually proposed), we have:
1. Quest
2. Adventure
3. Pursuit
4. Rescue
5. Escape
6. Revenge
7. The Riddle
8. Rivalry
9. Underdog
10. Temptation
11. Metamorphosis
12. Transformation
13. Maturation
14. Love
15. Forbidden Love
16. Sacrifice
17. Discovery
18. Wretched Excess
19. Ascension
20. Descension.

From: Tobias, Ronald B. 20 Master Plots. Cincinnati: Writer's Digest Books, 1993. (ISBN 0-89879-595-8)

I guess it would be possible to classify films against this, or any other (say from 7 to 69), standard but I don’t know if anyone has ever done it. Now if you could get Halliwell on CD ROM (or better still DVD so it could include extracts) and it had the right identifiers then you could sort against the 20, or whatever, plot types! Sounds to me like a good business opportunity.

11. Metamorphosis
12. Transformation


I'm afraid the author of that list has exceeded the granularity of my discernment.

k

The Fly,or i was a teen age werewolf or Dracula might be metamorphosis
Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, might be transformation.

(just guessing.. )

Metamorphosis is metamorphosis.

okay, and a sample of a transformation?

and what about movies like the parent trap are they transformation ?or how about Mrs. Doubtfire or Tootsie or those stupid ones, where there is some magical transformation (most recently the best looking girl in the a small town get transformed into a ugly guy), or kids get to be "transformed into their parents,and vica versa).. or would you consider those to be the same as metamorphosis?

The Fly,or i was a teen age werewolf or Dracula might be metamorphosis
Honey, I Shrunk the Kids, might be transformation.



I guess it would help me to understand why The Fly is not an example of transformation and why Honey, I Shrunk the Kids is not an example of metamorphosis.

Is it that Metamorphosis means changes to or from animals while transformation includes all other changes?

{Off-topic interlude} I've read The Metamorphosis (Kafka, not Ovid). My favorite piece of graffiti (which I believe I originated) is "Franz Kafka is alive and well and living in my terrarium."
{/Off-topic interlude}

In my unrefined, yet subtly simplistic consciousness I had somehow come to the ridiculous conclusion that these words were synonyms.

k

I'm with you, FF. I can't distinguish between the two. Could it be that transformation is an ennobling process?

...and JFTR, Pfranz Capfka is alive and well and living at AWAD.

the ridiculous conclusion that these words were synonyms.

As with many synonyms, we're looking at a shade of difference. We can make all the WAGs we want about the meaning of that shade of difference but can only turn to the perpetrator of this list to find out what was meant.

"I've read The Metamorphosis (Kafka, not Ovid). "

Well YEAH, 'cause Ovid wrote MetamorphosEs.

today's bonus wwftd is: metamorphosable
-tsuwm

Who played the title role in the first Thin Man movie?

Was it this guy?

http://phreeque.tripod.com/isaac_sprague.html

here's the Straight Dope: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001124.html

[I am particularly enamored of this approach: One school of thought holds that all stories can be summed up as Exposition/Rising Action/Climax/Falling Action/Denouement or to simplify it even further, Stuff Happens, although even at this level of generality we seem to have left out Proust.]

Leave it to Cecil

#11 METAMORPHOSIS - this plot involves the physical characteristics of the Protagonist actually changing from one form to another (reflecting their inner psychological identity).

#12 TRANSFORMATION - plot involves the process of change in the Protagonist as they journey through a stage of life that moves them from one significant character state to another.

[emphasis added]
http://www.tennscreen.com/plots.htm

Leave it to Cecil

Since Cecil says:

...take out sex, violence, and death and you lose 90 percent of literature right there.

The last 10% must itself be 90% humor... you know what that means...

http://www.ratbike.org/motorcycho/outlawname.php

Ol' Ironhorse of the Satan's Barbers MC

it says here we ride together, F.
- ol' headbanger, SBMC

(now wondering what this does to my Hell's Tunas status..)

I used to be in the Buddah's Desciples MC, but we were 90%ers

nice distinction there, tsuwm.

(... and that pesky ole third person plural pronoun rears its pointy little head once again.)

that pesky ole third person plural pronoun

You don't say!

make that "possessive" (sheesh!)

"possessive"

Thou dostn't say!

"metamorphosable" ? [Aha!-e]

Didn't someone propose a double-dactyl thread a couple of days ago?

Yes!! Thanks, Doc! [mental gears whirring....]

(ahem) Mothra would be the ultimate metamorphosis. (cinematically speaking)

what really sucks is not being able to be at AWAD all day, and finding out the question you wanted to ask as you tried to scan through everything really quickly even though you knew you couldn't reply because you didn't have time, but you didn't want to come home to 300 new posts, was asked and answered and you just feel left out...
I think my addiction has hit full force.



I'm feeling better now.

Fallible-I went the longest time thinking your name was theFallibleFriend...

FallibleFriend

I'm not sure why, but a number of people have been similarly mislead.

k

I know why... 'n I ain't tellin...

One school of thought holds that all stories can be summed up as Exposition/Rising Action/Climax/Falling Action/Denouement or to simplify it even further, Stuff Happens
Yep, that's it, all right. No, wait--I think I'd put it more like: Expectation/Encountering of problems/Expectation Fulfilled (or not).

Hell's Tunas?!

In real life: Titty Squeezer of the Hell's Beerguts MC, known on screen as: Sherrif of the White Werewolfes MC

Bingley

Ol' Momma of the White Werewolffes MC, here, Bingley.

That's Sherrif Bingley to you.[blowing smoke out of pistol ends emoticon]

Bingley

Hold it, Cowboy. It's not nice to dis yer Momma [tongue-planted-firmly-in-cheek e]

I can't stand it: MAN, I wish those people could spell!
yer Momma

Mummy, save me from the big bad mean Jackie.

Bingley

Nancy, please haul Bingley off firmly by his ear and explain to him that I am not mean...

Nice question FF, and great thread, folks.

I agree with you FF, that a name for such a category of films (films that are not exact remakes but share silimalr plots or storylines) should exist. Maybe we should create one?? How about 'filmkins'...for kinship of films or filmhoods? We might pronounce the latter as 'fil-moods'. Any takers?

tsuwm, thanks for pointing out that not so subtle difference between metamorphosis and transformation.

save me from the big bad mean Jackie

explain to him that I am not mean...

Time out! I need a clarification here, Jackie. Do I understand correctly from the above, that you accept the "big bad" (as in Red Riding Hood's wolf), and deny only the "mean?"

Full disclosure, Bingley: Jackie is none of those things; she just likes to pretend occasionally. After all, Ol' Momma of the Spider Skulls MC has a reputation to protect


Edit: Sorry, maahey, we now return to our regularly scheduled thread

tsuwm,
Regarding the distinction between the terms.
This is a distinction in technical definition and not general definition, right?

k

>This is a distinction in technical definition and not general definition, right?

I'd go further than that and say it's a distinction in the mind of Tobias, whose list was presented above (or whoever transformed his list on that website--I've not read the original).

Ol' Momma of the Spider Skulls Mc. I'm starting to think that Ol' Momma is the only female name there is
Ah! I lied about my age and now I'm Bitch of the Spider Skulls
Birth through 21= Lil' Bitch, 22 through 40= Bitch, 41=and for the rest of your life= Ol' Momma
Buncha misogynists, Harrumph®

Buncha misogynists <> Bikers

(with the possible exception of Hell's Tunas, of course..)

So, what name would the Hell's Tunas give me?

Connie, I should think.

here's the colors:
http://hellstunas.org/jpg/colors.jpg