We use the term Indigenous Peoples (Peuples Indigènes in French) for what United Statesians call Native Americans. Indigenous peoples are not encompassed by the borders set up by colonists of the "New World"; the land being one big mass whether Canada, U.S.A. Mexico, or South America. When asked about his nationality, a gentleman I know simply says Mohawk – not Canadian or Indigène.

I have found United Statsians (I love that name) have adopted 'American' as their own and that they do not readily share it with others.

We take that title because it sounds so much nicer than United Statesian and we're the only country whose name actually has the word "America" in it. It would also be somewhat absurd to call ourselves "United States of Americans". Plus, every other country in the Americas seems to have short, concise names that. The United States of America isn't really that creative of a name anyway, and since there could be a United States anywhere, we use "Americans".

. It would also be somewhat absurd to call ourselves "United States of Americans".

Hey, Jazz - and this unaccustomed diffidence from the country that claims a World Series in which it's the only participant?

If I'm not mistaken (and I'm sure, if I am, tsuwm will let us know ) The "World" Series comes from a now-defunct newspaper called the New York World. Back when NYC was the center of the universe.

>...unaccustomed diffidence from the country that claims a World Series in which it's the only participant.

hey! not only are the Canadian teams eligible for the world serious, but Toronto won the thing in the first appearance by foreign representatives in our fall spectacle, in 1992.

-joe friday

>If I'm not mistaken (and I'm sure, if I am, tsuwm will let us know...

in another time and place (or perhaps it was a parallel universe) I used the personna of the truth squad.

just the facts, ma'am.
-joe friday

ah, but the truth is in the telling tsuwm. "The first appearance of a FOREIGN team" !?!? Now if it was really a World series nobody would be considered foreign, would they.

"There is hopeful symbolism in the fact that flags do not wave in a vacuum."
-Arthur C. Clarke

flags do not wave in a vacuum

An admission that baseball sucks?

>It's interesting to note that you do consider other countries as American. Generally, I have found United Statsians (I love that name) have adopted 'American' as their own and that they do not readily share it with others.

Some years ago I was cycling in Ireland, and ran into a couple on bikes, both of them wearing helmets, as was I. I immediately called out and asked if they were American (no one else seemed to wear helmets, particularly not the German cyclists, about whom more some other time.) They replied that indeed they were Americans, but they were Canadians, not US citizens. I got the feeling they had chastised a few others for their effrontery. During the rest of the trip I was always careful to identify myself as "a US citizen."

I wonder, though, how foreigners and US of A citizens feel about the term Yank. I've been called this in several countries and have personally never been offended by it. Of course I don't live in or come from any areas in the Southern United States where the term Yankee is to say the least pejorative.

Really. Do you get called Yank a lot? I have never heard the term used here (in Québec).

As to the Canadian couple...it was probably just a protective reaction. Please please please do not take this as an attack, just as a bit of info. Canadians get treated much better when they say they are Canadians than when they let people believe they are Americans.

Unfortunately, there are still biases in this world. One of them is the belief that ALL Canadians are these self reserved individuals, sorta dull but all-around honest good people. Americans are often viewed as loud and self-serving. I have known several friends who were treated badly because people thought they were Americans (in France 2 and Italy 1) and the situation changed markedly when they let people know they were Canadian. I also have a friend from New Jersey who says he is from Canada when he travels overseas. He has noticed the same bias.

This is such a common situation that we are often told to wear Canadian pins or badges when we travel overseas and to let people know right away that we are Canadian.

I believe judging a person without knowing him is unjust, but not everybody does.

please, please, please do not take this as an insult; it's just a joke:

"It's hard to tell Canadians apart from really boring white
people, unless they're dressed up to go outside."
- National Lampoon: "Foreigners and How They Got There"

just a joke

I'm shocked - quoting from this and Simple Minds lyrics - or is this a further demonstration of polymath eclecticism?

I have to say that I'm offended by the assumption of non-Americans that Americans are such bad people. I can think of but two reasons for this animosity: our foreign policy and jealousy.

1) Yes, our foreign policy does seem rather intrusive at times. I personally believe that we should stay out of the business of other countries unless we've been asked to help. At the beginning of World War I our nation still had the mentality of isolationism. We tried desperately to stay out of the war, but our allies needed our help, so we entered the war and won. This gave us the idea that we should be a benevolent nation and help whenever it seemed someone needed our help. If we didn't fight battles in Europe and Asia, our military wouldn't have much to do: only once has war been brought to American soil since 1814. Yes, I agree that we have tried to help when we haven't been wanted, and this has definitely caused some hatred, but are good intentions punishable?

2) Many nations seem to think that we're a bunch of stuck up snobs because we created the single most industrialized world power in the would because of a yearning for individual freedom and the belief that hard work will get you somewhere in the world. Many nations are jealous of our prosperity and and angered because our ancestors made it look so easy. But the truth is that we worked through the hard times. Morality prevailed when we said that we'd had enough of slavery, workers stood up against the oppressions of big business during the Industrial Revolution and we forced ourselves through the Great Depression. Our path to industrial super power and world role model was not an easy one, and we'd appreciate it if you'd get off our backs about it.

The simple fact is that we're not all the same. Of course there are some snobbish people, some lazy people, some racist people, but the majority of the United Statesians are hard working, caring suburbanites who don't have any biases against foreigners. As a nation we want prosperity for everyone and intend to lead the world to all-encompassing peace.

(I hope I didn't offend anyone, but this is my opinion and I fail to see why anyone could have such generalized animosity toward a nation.)

Jazz

There are three points you should consider:

The first: It is a rare circumstance indeed where the "big guy" is not looked upon with some animosity. Look in the real world. More often than not, employees in the shop (warehouse floor, production line, whatever) dislike the floor managers who in turn dislike the people in the front office who in turn dislike management and upward on to the top. Cliques happen for a reason. There is rarely out-`n-out hatred but a general uneasyness and disquietude. The States are a really big guy.

The second: The “shop” example above stems from a lack of communication. Not simply in exchanging words but in an inability to communicate in the same terms and in the same manner. The same holds true for countries and their inhabitants. I’ll give you an example of miscommunication. In your post your write Our path to industrial super power and world role model was not an easy one . You are communication as an American. I would never think of writing this type of sentence. Whether or not it is true, it can be construed as grandstanding. Who decided you were a role model? Were you trying to say that my country is not as good as yours and that we should look up to you? Miscommunication I am sure.

The third: Nationalism v.s. patriotism…see previous thread. The former puts people off.

This is where we come in. This board is a great example of how a wide assortment of people can exchange ideas and, without setting out to, get to really know people from outside their own circle. Rome wasn’t built in a day. World peace is not around the corner. But every time someone new comes on board and is welcomed by the group (as I have seen here many times over) we are building bridges and bringing down walls.

I have to say that I'm offended by the assumption of non-Americans that Americans are such bad people.

JazzO, I must have missed something here. Where is the post implying that Americans are "bad people"? Or are you just sort of soap-boxing in general?

An admission that baseball sucks?

Does this year, far as I'm concerned, mav. [pout]

belMarduk--

Amen.

As a nation we want prosperity for everyone and intend to lead the world to all-encompassing peace.

Sorry, Jazz, but this is incredibly presumptuous.

I think that self-righteous is another term that leaps to mind....

As a nation we want prosperity for everyone and intend to lead the world to all-encompassing peace.

Sorry, Jazz, but this is incredibly presumptuous.

Certainly it is presumptious, but the sentiment behind it is admirable - I would need some convincing that your leaders shared it, incidently, but I an completely certain that the "ordinary" people of USA do. Any movement needs a leader - ask any thinking and committed anarchist - and the fittest leader tends to rise to the top in the hour of need (like King Arthur ) If the USA is consciously fitting themselves for the job, and show they can do it, I, for one, would be happy to follow - even though I would far prefer that the UK had the job (small hopes, given present government - or the alternative!)

As to the USA being a role model for the world - again, the way you couched it, Jazz, was a bit overbearing, but it does mirror what has actually happened in large parts of the world - you have stated what is, practically speaking, the truth.
Whether I consider it is a model that should be accepted by all is, of course, another matter

So keep the aspidistra flying, Jazz - more power to your elbow.

Many nations seem to think that we're a bunch of stuck up snobs because we created the single most industrialized world power in the would
because of a yearning for individual freedom and the belief that hard work will get you somewhere in the world.

I don't think that 'nationalism' is the issue here. I think that it has more to do with youthful fervor. (no age bashing here, as far as I can tell, I'm the second youngest among us.) Idealism was something which affected me until I had the opportunity to 'grow up' a little bit. After I was bitten by reality a few times I realized my views of the world were a bit too simplistic. Perhaps they still are. (I am speaking of myself here, not Jazz) My point is that I don't think self-righteousnes or nationalism is the issue here, but intense idealism. I find it to be an admirable quality that I miss in myself.

This is getting a bit heated.

Can I ask that this thread is laid down, please?
I plead guilty to having stirred the waters myself, and find I'm getting hot under the collar again.

I also feel that some of the remarks made are not in the general spirit of the board - at least, I hope they're not.

and find I'm getting hot under the collar again

apologies, I'm sure no one intends to offend.

An admission that baseball sucks?
Does this year, far as I'm concerned, mav. [pout]

What could you mean? Baseball is only interesting when NY Yankees are in World series (ok, so its not really a world series, its North American-- but it only counts if the Yankees are playing!)

Helen,
Welcome to the board. It would have been PERFECT had you actually been from Troy, NY. But great name, anyway.
Well, as you can see from my bio, I live in Atlanta, and it's kinda noblesse oblige to root root root for the home team. Absent the Braves, though, I'll support anyone playing against the Mets.

And yes, I vote with Rhub that we lay this thread to rest, also for the reason that's it's getting a bit long.

Ok, let me do a little explaining, I think the way I expressed myself was a little off.

My post was mainly in response to the implication that the word American conveys vulgarity for many people. I'm trying to say that most Americans should not be seen as detestable. All across the world people have the same moral values. Just because someone lives in the United States is no reason to not like them. I do believe that the USA is the sole world power and somewhat of a role model, but I mean this in a merely political way, not personal. Our government has combined the best parts of past governments to come up with what seems to be the most successful in history, but I in no way believe that the US is superior culturally.

Frankly, I think that the US is judged too much by our foreign policy, and most people don't want us intervening politically, but this is no reason to shun Americans personally.

Hopefully this clears up my seemingly brash former post.

Much clearer, and thanks.

Jazz. I was not put off by your previous comments. I may not agree with all of them but I am sure you (or anyone else for that matter) will not always agree with my comments. If I am way out there in a potato field (can you say that in English?) I expect somebody will say so.

In life you have to have the courage of your convictions, and you seem to have it in spades. I'm sorry Rhu felt we were going in a negative direction. It did not seem so to me. The proof is that there are no personal attacks on this board and that everyone (you and me included) are willing to listen to other points of view.

It is always interesting to discuss a subject with someone who has great passion for the subject - as long as it is that --- a discussion.

. If I am way out there in a potato field (can you say that in English?) I expect somebody will say so.

Since this thread veered in its current direction partly as a result of discussing the World Series, it seems appropriate that the English idiom which seems closest to the one you used is one from baseball: something or someone that surprises you, or seems strange could be "way out in left field."

In reply to:

---

way out in left field

---

Now I have never understood this expression, at least I understand what it means but not why it means that. I know baseball is something like rounders and the players' garb looks (to me at any rate) most peculiar, but that's about as far as my knowledge of the game goes. Would somebody care to explain?

Bingley

Now I have never understood this expression, at least I understand what it means but not why it means that. Would somebody care to explain?

How nice it is to learn that I am not the only one in the dark on this!

I just thought of a new thread on this.
Am posting in Miscellany: phrases from baseball.

this one really does warrant a YART flag, as some interesting conjecture was posted on the question. also see Jackie's new thread.

I know a number of people have suggested ending this thread, and I think it's probably time to, but the following comment seems to me to belong here:

I too was bemused by YART. I never tried to look it up. I just worked round it till I figured out the meaning from context. And then decided, for myself, that it stood for 'You already read this.'

I was wrong! But I am nostalgic now for that simple little sentence I was so proud of myself for working out...