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Posted By: johnjohn indicated - 09/18/02 09:11 AM
What's the origin of this as a medical term? As in "aspirin is indicated for headaches"? Are ther any other derivatives like "contra indicated"? Do physicians ever use "indications" on its own as a technical noun? Wof, wwh, alex where are you?

jj

Posted By: Faldage Re: contraindicated - 09/18/02 10:40 AM
Yes, contraindicated is commonly used when something is not indicated.

Posted By: wwh Re: contraindicated - 09/18/02 01:16 PM
I have no idea when the term "indicate" came to be used. Obviously it is an
ass-covering appeal to tradition. My dictionary gives as fourth definition:
4 to point to as the required treatment e.g. "bed rest is indicated"

Yes, I would use it as you did.


Posted By: johnjohn Re: contraindicated - 09/18/02 10:20 PM
I realised my question was unclear - I knew about "contra indicated", but wondered whether there were any other compound terms using it eg. to mean "strongly indicatated", etc. I've never heard of any. Also just wonder if you're def. of contraindicated is right - surely it has a negative rather than neutral connotation, ie. something must NOT be given or administered, eg becuase of side-effects or adverse reaction.

Posted By: wwh Re: contraindicated - 09/18/02 10:34 PM
I again hadn't paid close enough attention. "Contra-indicated" would be used when any medication
might cause serious side effects based on patient's other problems. For instance, many drugs must
not be given to pregnant women. Patients with problems with blood clotting would not be given
aspirin. Alcohol can dangerously potentiate many medications. Lots and lots of contraindications.
I can't think of any other compound of "indication".

Posted By: wofahulicodoc Re: contraindicated - 09/20/02 01:01 AM
Good question! I never thought to ask where that usage came from.

"Indicated" is an absolute term - either something is appropriate under a given circumstance, or not. "Contraindicated," however, has degrees: some things are absolutely and others only relatively contraindicated, depending on the balance of additional risks and benefits. Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease, in which case that cure is containdicated.

Something that is considered absolutely containdicated should not be given under any circumstances, because of a great probability of causing great harm; an example would be giving penicillin again to a patient who has survived an anaphylactic reaction to a previous dose. Even if that patient had, say, severe and life-threatening pneumonia, and penicillin might cure it, we wouldn't use it but would try to find something else that would work. Absolutely contraindicated.

On the other hand, if Coumadin (warfarin sodium) is given to retard clotting, and aspirin makes that tendency greater and could provoke unwanted bleeding, there may be circumstances in which Coumadin has proved to be insufficient to provide the needed protection. In that case aspirin would be considered only relatively contraindicated and might be given anyway, if the risk of clotting was high enough.

It all depends, as usual, on the word "relatively." Relative to what? Risks vs. benefits, always risks vs. benefits.

None of which, of course, sheds light on the origin of this particular usage of "indicated." I would contrive it to mean that among all the choices available, this one can be designated as an appropriate one.

Posted By: johnjohn Re: contraindicated - 09/23/02 12:36 AM
<<<None of which, of course, sheds light on the origin of this particular usage of "indicated." I would contrive it to mean that among all the choices available, this one can be designated as an appropriate one.>>>

'Zactly!!! its good shorthand for a concept which you probly need to express several times a day and which all peers and colleagues well understand, but which it takes some effort to define with precision, particularly to lay people, and has no direct lay translation (eg. femur for thigh bone). Seems to me that that is the essence of "jargon" and illustrates the need for it within professions and occupations. Are there any other examples medical and nonmedical? I guess a clear example from my area is a term like "trustee".


Posted By: wwh Re: contraindicated - 09/23/02 12:57 AM
Many many possible examples:
"Eighteen days later she
presented with one episode of hemetemesis and melena and passage of blood clots in the T-tube
and colostomy bag. ... "
She vomited blood and had tarry stools. Just aint got that swing.

Posted By: Faldage Re: contraindicated - 09/23/02 10:17 AM
Just aint got that swing.

And, to paraphrase myself, why waste six words when nineteen will do just as well.

Posted By: wsieber Re: contraindicated - 09/23/02 10:51 AM
Are there any other examples medical and nonmedical?
Jargon is of course part of any science. One has to distinguish between special words and special uses of words which also have a meaning in everyday speech. The latter can be more troublesome. If I say "salt" in my kitchen, I don't have to specifiy "sodium chloride", but in the chemistry labs, there are thousands of salts, sodium chloride being just one of them. The same applies to "sugar". On the other hand, in chemistry there is only one "iron", contrary to golf.

Posted By: Faldage Re: contraindicated - 09/23/02 11:10 AM
there is only one "iron"

Ferric iron (valence 3)

Ferrous iron (valence 2)

Posted By: wsieber Re: contraindicated - 09/23/02 12:38 PM
Ferric iron (valence 3) Ferrous iron (valence 2)
Taking up the gauntlet: it's still the same element. You could also have added metallic iron (valence 0). And I was afraid someone would throw in the numerous isotopes.
A pneumonia might also show up in various guises. Yet it always affects the lung.



Posted By: FishonaBike jargon - 09/24/02 08:19 PM
Jargon is of course part of any science

..and of many sports, hobbies, games, and of leisure pursuits from music and art right up to drinking.

It's about communicating at a level of detail removed from "average" experience, I suppose.

So what's the etymology of jargon? M-W is uninformative.



Posted By: Faldage Re: jargon - 09/24/02 09:34 PM
etymology of jargon

AHD sez from ME iargoun, gargoun, meaningless chatter, from OFr jargoun, gargon "twittering" (probably imitative).

Posted By: FishonaBike Re: jargon - 09/24/02 09:47 PM
from OFr jargoun, gargon "twittering" (probably imitative).

Figures, once you try going "gargon gargon gargon" with a bit of a French accent. Which reminds me of "rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb" being used for a boring speech. Digressing again.

Thank-ee Mr F.

Posted By: Faldage Re: iron nits - 09/24/02 09:56 PM
it's still the same element

To defend my point, the average Joe would see sodium chloride and say salt. Given potassium bromide he would shrug a huh? and forget it. He would do the same with metallic iron and ferric or ferrous iron.

But your point is taken.

Posted By: inselpeter Re: iron nits - 09/24/02 10:41 PM
<<but your point is taken>>

Took the point and contra-indicated.

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: iron nits - 09/25/02 12:39 PM
<<but your point is taken>>

Took the point and contra-indicated.

*rimshot*

Posted By: wsieber Re: iron nits - 09/26/02 07:14 AM
Given potassium bromide he would shrug a huh? - Actually he would fall asleep pretty soon

Posted By: milum Re: iron nits - 09/26/02 09:42 AM
*Rimshot*

Posted By: Faldage Re: iron nits - 09/26/02 09:58 AM
he would fall asleep pretty soon

And dream about salt?

The line forms behind Shona

Posted By: wow Re: indicated - 09/26/02 01:43 PM
Sloping off in semi-parallel direction (something that {cough cough-e} never happens here!):

The word indicated is sometimes used by reporters who just get weary of writing "he said" and is caught by alert Editors.
For instance a reporter might write "The candidate indicated that he was opposed to green fire engines."
The Editor would ask "How did he indicate it ? By splashing red paint on a green engine? He either said it or he didn't. Use said."
The editorial arguement is that the "He said" or "she said" allows the reader to identify the speaker but - in a way - disappears from the reader's consciousness and so does not interfere with the prose flow.
How do youze all feel about this nit? Hi Faldage


Posted By: Wordwind Re:rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb - 09/26/02 01:55 PM
Tangent Alert!!!

Rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb reminds me of an iguana I read about--the one that you usually see when people have one as a pet--the one with the medallions under his eyes. Here is its scientific name:

Iguana iguana iguana

Pardon the tangent, but it's not often that one reads the same word three times in a row.

WWW

Posted By: FishonaBike Re: indicated - 09/26/02 01:56 PM
"The candidate indicated that he was opposed to green fire engines"

Hmmm, that doesn't necessarily mean he said it, though, Wise One, at least to my reading.

More like he implied it, or said it "in so many words".


Posted By: Faldage Re: indicated - 09/26/02 01:59 PM
More like he implied it

Or perhaps, if he were in a cantonment, that he advised it.

Posted By: Bean Re: indicated - 09/26/02 02:00 PM
More like he implied it, or said it "in so many words".

I get the feeling that reporters are supposed to report what was said, not what they think was said. Inferring meaning (then repeating it as fact) is probably too editorial for what a reporter is supposed to do. wow?

Posted By: WhitmanO'Neill Re: indicated - 09/26/02 02:33 PM
Wow, it was always admissible with the editors and publications I wrote for to use indicate in the context of an ongoing quote, such as...>Smith said, "I hate red houses!" He then indicated the reason by saying or showing<...or are you just saying that indicate can't stand alone as in, 'he indicated'?

Posted By: FishonaBike Re: indicated - 09/26/02 02:44 PM
reporters are supposed to report what was said, not what they think was said

I meant more that if you said someone indicated something you may be paraphrasing what they said for convenience. Several examples of this on the BBC website, e.g.

Mr Blair's article comes a day after he indicated that the timing of any action was being discussed with Britain's closest allies

Blair almost definitely didn't say "the timing of any action is being discussed with Britain's closest allies", but neither is this interpretation/summary of what he did say subjective or contentious.

Posted By: Faldage Re: indicated - 09/26/02 03:01 PM
paraphrasing what they said for convenience

Thus:

he indicated that the timing of any action was being discussed with Britain's closest allies

as opposed to:

he was like the timing of any action was being discussed with Britain's closest allies

Posted By: FishonaBike Re: indicated - 09/26/02 03:08 PM
* rimshot







Posted By: wow Re: indicated - 09/26/02 03:35 PM
indicate can't stand alone Correct as I see it.

that doesn't necessarily mean he said it, though, Wise One,
Exactly my point - I being the Editor who was always pounding the use of "said" into reporters' heads!
"I take my authority from Strunk and White," she said.



Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: indicated - 09/26/02 06:12 PM
Fishlet, I am happy to see you have learned the latest meaning of *rimshot* and have put it to good use,

Yer doting Auntie,
the ASp

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: Strunk & White - 09/26/02 06:15 PM
Watch out, wow, there was a Strunkenwhite virus floating about last month... if you are unaware, E me and I'll E it to you (I already posted it somewhere...)

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