I have become curious as to the origin of these terms when used to describe socialist or conservative politics.
It occurred to me that it might originate from the positions of the two parties in Parliament, but research shows that in the UK at least the party in power sits on the right of the Speaker and the major opposition sits on the left.
Please can any political history buff provide the answer?
Come to think of it, why is left wing red and right wing blue?
dxb
It stems from the lay out of the parties in the Jacobin chamber, which was somewhat circular in shape compared to thetypical UK (and derivative) oppositional style. It's a classic case of a particular attribute getting attached to and then redefining the word used to identify the subject!
It stems from the lay out of the parties in the Jacobin chamber
It's that way in the US Congress as well. The Dems sit on the left (facing the speaker) and the Reps on the right. (I wonder where Jim Jeffords sits.)
Does anyone know when the US developed this custom? I wouldn't think that the early Congress would have copied what the Brits were doing, seeing as the new nation was trying to be completely different.
I'll be out of pocket this afternoon, but I have my pager
SilkMuse - thanks for your clear definition of the correct use of "out of pocket" - its misuse drives me mad.
I occasionally work with a group of people in an office in Dallas who all, each and every one of them, use this phrase in the incorrect sense you describe - even going so far as to change their voice-mail messages to say they're "out of pocket" when they're away from the office for a few days. They happen to be a fairly rigidly hierarchical organization, and I have assumed that, when in the office, the staff-people I work with feel that they are in the manager's pockets. Thus, when they get to escape from that by travelling or going to meetings outside the office, they are in fact "out of pocket." But it's still wrong, in my book.
I thought left wing and right wing came from the French?
Good question on the red and blue, dxb. It's that way in the US, too. Maybe red comes from Communism? and blue to be as distinct as possible from red?
In other words, I have no clue and am merely "voicing" vague ideas from my junk-drawer memory®. Can anyone with time/inclination look these up? Dr Bill, where are you??
Wow - I've never heard 'out of pocket' (mis)used like that. It sounds really funny to me. I can hardly imagine how/why that started (unless Hyla's assumption is right). Very interesting.
can hardly imagine how/why that started
Perhaps the usage developed when one is on one's own financially rather than on expense account or using a company credit card, for example, if on vacation all expenses are one's own and one is "out of pocket".
word detective:
Pocketapocketapocketa.
Dear Word Detective: I am having an argument with my brother. He insists that the
phrase "out of pocket" refers to expenditure from one's own resources, with the
expectation of later reimbursement. I contend that one is "out of pocket" when one
cannot be reached, is outside of the place where one can contact or be contacted. He has found a legal brief to support his position and I want something from another expert that challenges his brief. -- Dr. Nancy Tarsi, via the internet.
You know, I'm not entirely sure I want to get involved in this argument if you folks are already waving legal briefs at each other. Am I going to have to testify in court? I should warn you that I grew up watching the old Perry Mason TV series, and the moment I land in the witness box I'm likely to break down and confess to all sorts of shocking, if somewhat irrelevant, transgressions.
I'm especially apprehensive about answering your question because I'm afraid that
your brother's case is very strong. "Out of pocket" is indeed usually used as a sort of shorthand for "paying out of one's own pocket that which should (and usually ultimately will) be paid by someone else." Interestingly, the original sense of "out of pocket" when it first appeared around 1693 was not so hopeful. It meant to be either "broke" or "the loser in a financial transaction."
However, and here's where your case gains strength, around 1974 "out of pocket" also started being used to mean "out of touch" or "unavailable." No one seems to know exactly why this sense arose or what the "pocket" in this case might be. Personally, I suspect that it's a bad translation of some French phrase. In any case, this sense of "out of pocket" is not, as far as I can tell, widely used. A more common phrase meaning the same thing is "out of the loop," which first appeared around 1983 and is probably rooted in computer terminology.
But the bottom line is that you're both right, although your brother is a bit more likely to be clearly understood when he uses "out of pocket." word mavens: (this mentions that it has been discussed at alt.usage.english)
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20010522()
tsuwm, thank you for vindicating the dust in my junk drawer. Now, about the red and blue...?
yeah, yeah, never satisfied.....
Nice one, tsuwm. I was just about to look for something to back up my view that left-wing and right-wing originated in the French National Assembly - my untidy memory at work again.
However, the continuation of the usage of the words and the seating of the parties in assemblies in other countries is interesting, particularly since England would have had a fit were one to suggest, in the late eighteenth century, that their seating arrangements were copying those of those dastardly cads, the French.
Relax, you USns, my memory also suggests that Congress' seating doesn't copy the English parliamentary arrangements. It was a deliberate nod to the French, who, your history lessons will no doubt tell you, were much admired by Jefferson and co.
The Red and Blue are also explained by the French tricoleur, but you had probably already guessed that.
I've never heard "out of pocket" used in the sense that someone can't be reached. I find it rather difficult to believe that it's used that way by anyone!
The Red and Blue are also explained by the French tricoleur, but you had probably
already guessed that.No, or we wouldn't have asked.
OK, Mr Smarty Pants, how was it decided which colo(u)r would be assigned to which group?
Just a short anecdote. I occasionally give my friend, Ruby, a ride home. As I drive, we normally chat, laugh and giggle. Sometimes, as is my wont while chatting and driving, I do some things without being aware of what I'm doing. Several times, I have found myself making a left turn when what I really wanted to do was continue forward. I say "Ruby, why didn't you warn me I was doing this?" Sixties hippy that she is, she says, "Heaven forbid that I should be the one to curb your leftist leanings!"
To the tune of O Tannenbaum, or either the White Cockade, one.
The people's flag is deepest red,
It shrouded oft our martyred dead,
And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
Their hearts blood dyed its every fold.
Then raise the scarlet standard high. (chorus)
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.
Look round, the Frenchman loves its blaze,
The sturdy German chants its praise,
In Moscow's vaults its hymns are sung
Chicago swells the surging throng.
It waved above our infant might,
When all ahead seemed dark as night;
It witnessed many a deed and vow,
We must not change its colour now.
It well recalls the triumphs past,
It gives the hope of peace at last;
The banner bright, the symbol plain,
Of human right and human gain.
It suits today the weak and base,
Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place
To cringe before the rich man's frown,
And haul the sacred emblem down.
With heads uncovered swear we all
To bear it onward till we fall;
Come dungeons dark or gallows grim,
This song shall be our parting hymn.
I wouldn't think that the early Congress would have
copied what the Brits were doing, seeing as the new nation was trying to be completely different.Tell that to those of us who still cling to the British(antiquated) system of weights and measures. Base 10 good, base 12 or 16 bad! Nobody believed Franklin when he came back form seducing half the French court and told Congress (not the congress he'd been having in France) that the French had a good idea!
a se'f-yart! well done, hyla-hyla!!
;)
dxb: Come to think of it, why is left wing red and right wing blue?
AnnaS: Maybe red comes from Communism? and blue to be as distinct as possible from red?First off, green is the most distinct color from red. They're opposites on the color wheel. Course, they're also called complimentary colors because they go so well together. (Same for yellow/violet and blue/orange.) I doubt that has anything to do with it. Red and blue are just the two prominent colors in the Brit, US, French, Aussie, Zild, etc. flags. White is obviously not used because one, it's not a color, two, it wouldn't show up on white paper and three, it stands for purity.
About colors being assigned to parties, I distinctly remember an electoral map in TIME magazine just after the 2000 election that had Bush's states in red and Gore's in blue. I think it's pretty arbitrary.
Here's one:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/2000vote/general/president.html
>About colors being assigned to parties, I distinctly remember an electoral map in TIME magazine just after the 2000 election that had Bush's states in red and Gore's in blue. I think it's pretty arbitrary.
I hadn't realised that.
Here the parties are very clearly colour coded:
Labour -
red, although the reg flag logo was replaced with a red rose a few years ago to be less "challenging", they do still sing the red flag at the end of the annual conferenceConservative & Ulster Unionists -
blue (with a hint of Union Jack) Mrs Thatcher must have spend thousands on a myriad of different colours of blue suits in her time.Liberal/ Lib Dem -
Gold/Yellow (but never orange) MPs tend to have a large wardrobe of gold ties and scarves.Green Party -
green, not surprisingly but see this article for a (lengthy} discussion on shades of green - red green, blue green and deep green http://www.earthscan.co.uk/samplechapters/1853837598Chapter1.htmIn Northern Ireland the colours
green and
orange mark the sectarian divide.
Maybe Rhuby can tell us how far back the colours go. What colour were the Whiggs?
Gee! Thank you all for the unexpectedly impressive response. Particular thanks to tsuwm, the link was very clear in enlarging on maverick's reply.
Thank you AnnaS for prodding so well on the colour issue. Not sure we've bottomed that out yet. Jazzoctopus' statement that green is the colour most distinct from red intrigues me as I am red/green colour blind which would have led me into the natural mistake of thinking that the wavelengths of these two colours must be close. Still its many years since I studied physics so perhaps I can be forgiven. But I'm still puzzled and will pursue further.
BTW, "out of pocket" in the sense of out of touch is used in the UK, in my experience, by those who aspire to be taken for City whizz-kids. Apologies to any Brit AWADers who may be fond of using it - I'm sure you really are City whizz-kids!
.
tsuwm, thanks...the Jacobin chamber...[/chopped liver®]
OK, Mr Smarty Pants, how was it decided which colo(u)r would be assigned to which group?
I believe that M. Quordlepleen probably has the right (and the left) of it, mademoiselle.
Yay!! I get to nit-pick before Faldage does!!
Jazz points out:
they're also called complimentary colors because they go so well together.
Close, but no cigar. Pairs comprising one primary and one secondary (made from two primaries) color are called 'complEmentary" because, opposite each other on the color wheel, when taken together they encompass the entire spectrum, or white (light)/black (pigment). [/thus endeth the picking of the nits]
the right (and left) of it
It’s actually a bit more complicated than that may suggest, since originally the (tricoleur) flag was hung t’other way around with the red next to the staff in ‘left wing’ position, but is nowadays hung blue on the left!
The origin is normally credited to Lafayette around the time of the storming of the Bastille, and I think stems from the troop uniform col[e/o](u)rs of Paris with the addition of the white of the Bourbon monarchy.
Lemme see what I can quickly find…
Although significances have been attached to the colours these are all spurious and invented after the fact….http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/fr.html#ori
Thank you, maverick. Chopped liver, you ain't!
Chopped liver, you ain't!
thank 'ee kindly m'am - I have a twin passion for all things revolting, and French [innocent]
Nice one, mav. The link seems authoritative.
And you're not chopped liver. You're pate de foie gras. [schmonk]
pate de foie grasthat's
pâté de foie gras to tu, too [/faldage]
Powdery white, most of them.
The use of colors for identification purposes goes back deep into history. Alexander the Great is credited with the first use of color to identify different blocs.
As the successful leader of what was then the largest army ever assembled, Al knew that coordination of troop movement was secondary only to logistics, i.e., keeping the troops fed. He repeatedly came close to defeat because his left wing moved at the wrong time or his right wing failed to move at all.
His scientists solved the problem, inventing chemicals that changed color after a certain time of exposure to the air. Alexander dipped strips of cloth in these various chemicals and passed them out before battle to his troops to wear around their heads. Then, for example, when the green bands changed to orange after three hours, those troops knew to advance. Und so weiter.
And there you have the origin of Alexander's Rag Timebands.
Canada, being descended from Britain and all, has similar colour coding of its parties. The original two parties were Conservative (blue) and Liberal (red). The Conservatives are now called the Progressive Conservatives (ultimate oxymoron). As in Britain, these parties are often called the Tories and Grits, respectively.
We've gained some new parties in the last 50 or so years, starting with the New Democratic Party - the most left wing of them all - whose colour is orange. (Yuck! Sucks to be a latecomer!) The Bloc Québecois seems to be light blue and white. Since the Québec flag is blue and white, no surprise there. And the Reform Party - now renamed something unwieldy which ends or starts with Canadian Alliance - is green, though they're not terribly gung-ho on the environment, I think it was just the only colour left (well, right actually!
)
Bean, then shouldn't their color be yellowish-white?
Oh, and TEd:
Bean, then shouldn't their color be yellowish-white?
YUCK!!!!!!!!!
Have we discussed before how on earth they came to get those nicknames, the Tories and the Grits? (I'm supposed to be working so I don't have time to LIU all over the place...)
The use of colors for identification purposes goes back deep into history
TEd's digression notwithstanding, the Romans *did have political color connections. The four major factions in the Games were the Reds, the Blues, the Greens and the Whites. Originally they were four independent and equal groups and, depending on who was the emporers favorite, political factions following them. Later on two of them (Green and White, I believe) became subsidiary to the other two. Whether this is in any way the origin of Red = left wing, Blue = right wing I don't know.
Stated to mav: You're pate de foie gras.
And weren't mav's legs previously characterized as frog's legs? What is it about mav that brings forth all these food references (all of the upper-crust variety, of course)?
I think it is from the layout of the French congress/parliament/senate or whatever it is called. I have no idea why I am convinced of this but I will find out for you.
To be left out of pocket- to have lost out financially. To have paid from ones own pocket instead of the proper debtor.
> I will find out for you
um, Dody, have you
read the rest of the thread, before you
blue any time on this hunt for previously discovered treasure?
I believe the Whigs' colour was buff (tan or yellowish). I think you find this in Dickens' description of an election in Pickwick Papers.
Sweet Hyla-chic, didn't you remember our past discussion?
a se'f-yart! well done, hyla-hyla!!
I knew the risk, and considered calling a yart my-own-self, but I took the path of least assistance (and least effort), and just chimed in with my concurrence. Thank you kindly for the comeuppance. Anyhow, we discussed it almost a year ago, and it still ain't fixed! What the hey?
p.s. - the distinct colors selected above to distinguish the quotes of the distinguished Jackie and tsuwm were in no way intended to distinguish their distinct political views one from the other.
p.s. - the distinct colors selected above to distinguish the quotes of the distinguished Jackie and tsuwm were in no way intended to distinguish their distinct political views one from the other.A hit! A very palpable and well-deserved hit!
(hi, Max)
I learned the phrase "out of pocket" in terms of being unavailable about 20 years ago when I began working for the US Air Force. I have always assumed it to be a military term, referring to being out of the pocket of resistance or some such, thus meaning unavailable for duty. And that's the exact translation for the phrase as I understood it.
Another phrase I learned at the same time was window of opportunity. I always wanted to slam that window shut on the perpetrator's knuckles.
the Romans *did have political color connections. The four major factions in the Games were the Reds, the Blues, the Greens and the Whites. Originally they were four independent and equal groups and, depending on who was the emporers favorite, political factions following them. Later on two of them (Green and White, I believe) became subsidiary to the other twoIndeed. For a detailed discussion of the teams, see
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D2E752441
Alexander's Rag Timebands.
Oh, Ted, you're killin me!
Re French trricolor : Marcel Moune, he of French birth told me children are taught to remember which color goes closest toi the flagpole by learning "Bleu,Blanc et Rouge"
(Pahdun ma French)
The Irish flag for the Republic was set up to have Green for the Republic, Orange for the North (Free State) and White for (the hope of) Peace.