My 99th post: I would like to know people's PERSONAL take on the difference between being naked, and being nude (ie, not what their fave dictionary says, but their own linguistic explanation).

And if anyone is curious enough to know WHY I'm so interested in this, I will make the explanatory post my 100th!

hmmmmm ... could this tie in with your recently-posted interest in Wordpalooza!, and your profile indicating a penchant for skinny-dipping?

I'm trying to concoct a response here that won't make me sound too unangelic!

Okay, I'm dying to go to bed with a MEMBER at last! (it's been soooooo looooong ) Here's the explanation - lessee what people think:

In my profile I list my occupation as "wretched unemployed person" - well, that should really read "wretched UNDERemployed person." I work, sporadically and part-time, as a NUDE MODEL!

TA-DA!

So I'm very curious to find out what people's personal ideas about nude and naked are. Me, I'm nude when I'm working or at a nude beach; the rest of the time if I'm not sporting clothes, I reckon I'm naked. Nude, I feel safe; naked, I feel an element of danger....

Congratulations on your rhabdo-promotion! Tonight you will go to bed with a member to your name.

But remember ... The sensuous modern woman, while she doesn't think the size of a man's orgasm is important, does insist on multiple penises.
http://www.compu-diva.com/IvoryGates/quotes.htm

A bit, unenthusiastically, I congratulate you on your new Member. Seriously, congratulations, MG, wonderful to have more Members here! Looks like I'm Addicted to this place!

To scoop from the newest song thread I would like to borrow from Angel's post and rewrite a little bit of a song:

Might as well face it, you're addicted to AWAD!

(with apologies to Robert Palmer! or whoever wrote the durn song for him!)

A double-promotion???!!!! Is everything rising here?

Congrats, oh heavenly one! In celebration, are your perhaps planning to replace your trusty, never dusty websters with a [drumroll] nud-ictionary?

modestgoddess, after your shocking post, I'm calling you immodestgoddess!

So I'm very curious to find out what people's personal ideas about nude and naked are. Me, I'm nude when I'm
working or at a nude beach; the rest of the time if I'm not sporting clothes, I reckon I'm naked. Nude, I feel
safe; naked, I feel an element of danger....

Does that mean you were naked when you wrote this and you like to visit AWAD in the nude? Congrats on your membership!

I only use nude to describe a state of undress. Naked can be used, as you said, to emphasise an element of danger or of undress by duress - stripped naked or naked truth.

Nude also has a much warmer sound to it but then again, it is French. Naked? Harsh, menacing. You have to sneer to pronounce it.

Naked came I into this vale of tears. Immediately I was diapered, and never allowed to be nude in public.
No nudes is good nudes was the motto. I never escaped cottontail status. And having had a malignant melanoma removed, I am forbidden to sunbathe. It's a cruel world.

Congratulations Ms Godiva on your fivescore.

stales

Congratulations Ms Godiva on your fivescore.

All members please stand to attention....

stales

I took a drawing class my senior year at UNC Chapel Hill. The art professor told me of a former model who used to come to class, and he would be completely undressed except for a pair of socks or a hat or something like that. The professor summed it up by saying "Now when you have no clothes on at all, that's nude, but when you're wearing just a pair of socks, now that's naked!"

"Now when you have no clothes on at all, that's nude, but when you're wearing just a pair of socks, now that's naked!"

Harry Belefonte, Zombie Jamboree:

I goin’ talk to Miss Brigit Bardot
And tell her miss Bardot take it slow
All the men think they're Casanova
When they see that she’s barefoot all over
Even old men out in Topeka
Find their hearts getting weaker and weaker
So I goin’ to ask her for your sake and mine
At least to wear her earrings part of the time.

Hmmmmm.....Then I guess I spend most of my time naked, cos I never removes my earrings....

Thanks for the congrats on my status. All members standing to attention: now THAT'S what I like to see!

Which reminds me.....the modelling discussion board, to which I also belong, has a very interesting (and veeeeery looooong) thread about male models getting an erection while posing. I'd always thought that that was taboo (indeed, the word "taboo" is in the title of the thread), but apparently quite a few drawing groups request that of their male models on occasion. Interesting.....The models who were talking about this were saying that that can be the most difficult part of the pose to hold (as 'twere!) - as it requires some mental effort....!

For anyone who's interested, here's the link:

http://forums.delphiforums.com/fdg/messages/?usg=1217.1

Angel, I just noticed, you've become an ~***Addict***~. Why I declare, you are more modest than the goddess. Besides, you out rank her. Go congratulate her and then tell that curvaceous, beautiful, naked, new, ***Member*** to go put on some clothes. That sort of behavior might be condoned in the wilds of Canada, but I'm afraid it would be continuing source of embarrassment for the male members of this board.

Speaking for myself, of course.

Why, thank you very much, dear, sweet, Milum. But somehow I find it very difficult to picture you embarrassed in Miss MG's presence, clothed or unclothed! Uh...her, not you!

Would you-all PLEASE move this thread out of this category???
There are people who read Q&A only, looking for real discussions about language. I have one person in particular in mind, and if we lose him we will ALL be the worse for it!

I'm not saying nothin' about a dishonorable discharge for failure to obey orders. Nothin', you hear me, nothin'.

Honoring dear Jackie's request (and getting two easy posts), I politely direct you to the continuation of this thread at the link below.

http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=63183

Wade a minnit (and I wasn't going to browse the board tonight - need....sleeeep......) - I say this post IS about language.

I asked for people's personal (not dictionary) definitions of nude and naked. Last I checked, both them is words. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the tag line under the Q&A title actually says, "Got a question about a word? post it here." Well, I got the question I posted about TWO words - naked and nude. And I am genuinely interested in people's answers.

Eh, so we got a little sidetracked in all the Angelic excitement of addiction, and the journey into member. So sue us.

Back to them words: Really, I'm curious to know how people define these for themselves - or what people think of when they hear each. There have been some interesting (to me, anyway) posts on this subject here. I don't see the need to move it to Miscellany. Them as wants to be jolly and rude can go to Keiva's alternate post (I'll be popping in there too, I luuuurrve jolly and rude!) but this IS SO a language thread, and I beg people who have genuine responses to the original question, to post 'em HERE.

And Jackie - I understand your concern with keeping the board compartmentalised, but please, if you're thinking what I've said above don't fit Q&A - just don't visit this thread here anymore.

Edit PS: There are other threads in this category that actually aren't about words, per se. Is someone going to shoo all of them into Miscellany or can we all just relax a little?

I'm sure that what bothered Jackie was the first several messages where three of you had a nice chat about members -- that's the sort of thing we've worked diligently over time to limit in Q&A. it's covered in the FAQ. we have gotten lax of late, but I guess this one tipped the scale for her.

-joe (just the FAQs) friday

As a matter of fact, mg, with the exception of this: "So I'm very curious to find out what people's personal ideas about nude and naked are. Me, I'm nude when I'm working or at a nude beach; the rest of the time if I'm not sporting clothes, I reckon I'm naked. Nude, I feel safe; naked, I feel an element of danger...." and your originating post, it is my opinion that none of your posts in this thread belong anywhere in AWADtalk.

Also-- it was not on behalf of myself that I asked that this thread be moved. Nor was it I who originally suggested keeping Q&A reserved for serious language discussion. But the people I am thinking of are not able to be here just now, and so I made that post in their stead, really. Yes, there have been a great many non-language posts here lately. I am not an enforcer. No one here can be. I felt a need to post a reminder, is all. If most of the group wish to throw out that agreement, or if individuals continue to ignore it, then so be it. I have no personal stake, either way--other than the sadness I'm sure to feel if we lose people.

>> it is my opinion that none of your posts in this thread belong anywhere in AWADtalk.

A bit of Gilbert and Sullivan's Mikado may perhaps enlighten us and lighten our spirit?
(MIDI: http://math.boisestate.edu/gas/mikado/html/so_please_you.html)

the young gals:
So please you, Sir, we much regret
If we have failed in etiquette
Towards a man of rank so high--
We shall know better by and by.
But youth, of course, must have its fling,
So pardon us, so pardon us,
And don't, in girlhood's happy spring,
Be hard on us, be hard on us,
If we're inclined to dance and sing. Tra la la la la
(Dancing.)

the august Pooh-bah personage:
I think you ought to recollect
You cannot show too much respect
Towards the highly titled few;
But nobody does, and why should you?
That youth at us should have its fling,
Is hard on us, is hard on us;
To our prerogative we cling--
So pardon us, so pardon us,
If we decline to dance and sing. Tra la la la la

I just remembered being both nude and naked. I had to lie on a table, and two pretty girls shaved off my pubic hair, and tattooed me. The design was a mystic pattern of dots. I did not get an erection. then or ever afterwards The tattooes were for aiming the torture machine used to destroy my manhood.
It was preparation for irradiation treatment for Ca of prostate by linear accelerator.

Interesting distinction, now that you mention it.

Nude is unclothed.

Naked implies being exposed (to what?), unprotected, and vulnerable, as well.

Is Jackie a prude?
Is she never nude?
Maybe never naked.

Damn, I can't find a short-sentence rhymin' line to finish my li'l pome.

Jackie, don't presume to speak for others. I know I'd go ballistic if someone thought they could safely post on my behalf. If someone has a problem with this thread, he or she can post his or her thoughts - I don't suppose, this being a discussion board for word lovers, that anyone here is incapaable of speaking (writing!) for him/herself.

Obviously I find the differences between naked and nude very interesting. I also find modelling a fascinating occupation and it's something I love, for many reasons (no, the nudity is not first among them). I was hoping to hear what other people thought about the distinction between the two states. Within the discussion I was hoping we might get to dispelling some IGNORANCE and PREJUDICE about nudity.

Thanks for giving us a li'l taste of what I was hoping to combat.

MORE IMPORTANTLY: Thank you to Keiva for trying to lighten the mood, and

Thank you to those who are taking this thread "seriously" in that they are posting their responses to/thoughts on my original question.

And if anyone has any questions about nude modelling - why, I'd love to try and answer them for you. Either post them here, where we can cast the light of knowledge farther, or PM me.

This is a language-discussion board. Or at least it started out that way. If it is the will of most people that that change, then as I said, so be it. I enjoyed it while we had it. Make that loved.

....bring on the nude/naked distinctions. I am interested.

[deep sigh-e]

Durn! You try to have a good ol'- fashioned feelthy thread in here, something like our old "Q&A / Brick Outhouse Bertha" thread ...

... and suddenly the music turns serious and judgemental.
How about a lighter song here, folks? Can anyone supply some new-ditty for us?

[prior thread is at
http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=41015&page=&view=&sb=&part=all&vc=1
and was continued at http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=words&Number=44156]

Happy birthday, Anu

I have often wondered how prehistoric women kept their infants warm in the days before they even had knives to skin animals. Also how they managed without diapers. My father once suggested they used sphagnum moss, but how could they hold it in place?

[confused -e] What was THAT about, AnnaS?

I ass|u|me'd that it was completely unrelated to the original thread, or about the general thrust of the forum, and was just something she felt like saying. but I could be wrong.

(ron)

I see, tsuwm, like a person who walks into an ongoing conversation and interjects unrelated comment?
Nice pun, by the way. [kicking self for not having thought of that one -e]

From my position as a former nude model aand anything-but-a-prude, I agree with Jackie. Which is why I've been posting my responses over at Miscellany, out of respect for her reasons, which involve others, not her specifically.

modestgoddess, are you single-handedly trying to change what this board is about? If so, have fun and if the majority likes your changes, "so be it."

Meanwhile, can we get on with words? And yes, to me "nude" implies willingness, "naked" implies helplessness.

a person who walks into an ongoing conversation and interjects unrelated comment

This from one who does this repeatedly, and usually ends up killing threads.

Dear ASp: Have you an example, or just the power of your unsupported naked assertion?

No doubt you will feel free to critique my posts, but might it be more illuminating to discuss real events rather than hypothetical unspecified ones? Evidence, child; evidence.

Edit: "This from one who ..."
I see that you want to change the subject fron your own interjection.

Yes, Anna, goodness knows i have been guilty, (in the past!) of turning threads from words to food.. and certainly, i enjoy a quick turn of phrase, that makes me laugh, and then makes me blush, but all to many threads these days, have allegedly witty comments, that are barbs, with scant wit, and nothing to do with the thread.

there are some shades of meanings, and some "mental tricks" that my mind plays with nude and naked. i have never been a model bet that's is no surprize!, but i have taken art classes -- human figures-- and drawn models. as the model drops her robe, and settles in to position, something strange happens... she loses her personhood, and becomes a thing. a living breathing human form. you don't see or react to the person, you react to the folds of the skin, the shadows, the muscles, and the fat, the wrinkles and the smoothness, the tone, and color.

at times it can be erotic, -- and yet there is a distance, so that i was almost embarassed that i notice how erotic the form was. Not that i was attracted to the model--rather, her cool demeanor allowed me to explore being visualy aroused. and while i am not talented, i have some skill, and the my drawing was the better for being aroused.

as to the word naked (or my sense of being naked.) it is more vunerable, but not helpless..-- and i think i could slip between being naked and nude, minute by minute.

its a good thing ashcroft isn't a member here at AWAD, or we would have big blue curtains, blocking out this thread!

and are there words for being partial underessed, that have the same strong emotions behind them, the way naked and nude do?

in skivies?
scantily clad?
full frontal nudity?
bare assed, bare breasted?

none of these evoke much of an emotional charge.. not like naked!

Dear of troy: I see a comparison, yet a difference in the reaction of health care givers and artists toward nudity. Health people have to be temporarily oblivious to any thing erotic, while humbly aware of the beauty of God's creation. Artists have to concentrate so totally on the recording of the beauty there is no room in their thinking for the erotic.

Howye fokes

Check this one out - it's shocken terrable altagather and not fer the faint-hearted.
http://community.gambling.com/forums/CForum.asp?archive=0&teaser=tease&M=4996&F=1&T=4996

the link

ROMFL!!! Hilarious, Ted! I don't know how you do it...but I'm certainly glad you can!!! LOL!

Howya Whitty

Thanks a millin fer yer kind comments. The sad thing is that Loxy did actually open up such a din of equity across the road from Slasher's Bar (and Grill).

It's tuff been a teddy bear with that one around, I tell ya
Be seein ya

GallantTed

I worked in the health care field for a very short time (not for me). But you do get very desensitized to the naked human body. I considered the patients naked. Very vulnerable. Not of their choosing. Cold.

Where nude to me indicates something softer. More natural and warm. And of one's will.

As a physician in residency I see a fair amount of unclothed people. (Or is that unclothed persons...?) I don't know if desenitized is the right word--I would say we in the medical field become accustomed to seeing people without their clothes on.

As far as noticing beauty,... I do, but that is not to say that I am thinking prurient thoughts. Rather, what I tend to notice is how the body changes with age and illness, and occasionally I see a younger patient and I am struck by their beauty and health. It is certainly a much wider concept of beauty than what I had as a teenager. And of course, there is beauty around besides the blush of youth.

Another interesting thing is that some patients can be only partially undressed and seem very much naked, while others are quite exposed but seem merely nude. Many veterans, for example, are comfortable undressing and being examined in private areas, but there are some who are not. Many of the women I have treated for breast cancer are somewhat uncomfortable with having their breast examined, but others are very relaxed. And of course, many patients are not comfortable even talking about medical matters pertaining to their most private bodily parts.

Often, uneducated people use words that are considered crass or vulgar when relating a problem, but of course they lack a wider vocabulary. Linguaphiles such as the members of this board would be much more likely to say "Doctor, I am having pain when I urinate," while a less educated person would perhaps say "Doc, it hurts when I p*ss." Others yet realize that p*ss is not a polite word, but they are at a loss for finding the "proper" word, and end up feeling embarassed.

I to try to make the naked patient feel merely nude, and to carefully introduce a subject in a way that shows that there is nothing to be ashamed of. But sometimes it's a lost cause and it can be rather comic.

I recently had a patient, a young woman who seemed reasonably educated, who had had rectal cancer. She had undergone an operation to remove most of her colon and rectum. She was left with a colostomy, and the anus had been completely sewed up as part of the operation. She told me she was having pain "where my butthole used to be." I tried to gently introduce the term "anus" or even "rectum" without coming across as too didactic or rude. But it was hopeless. Eveery time she had a check up she would use the word "butthole" and, honestly, it embarassed me. I never could get her to adopt what I considered a more "appropriate" term. I think my embarassment had a lot to do with my concept of class distinctions. The patient in question seemed to exhibit a contradiction between her vocabulary and her overall demeanor. Had it been a veteran who had served in the navy in WWII I probably could have easily fallen into a mode of discourse with him that was more relaxed and anything he said I could have taken in stride.

I feel sorry for your patient with the colostomy. They are no fun at all, and if you're young they must be even worse. Life can certainly dish out the dirt, can't it?

Eveery time she had a check up she would use the word "butthole"

Maybe she's just a big fan of King Coffey and company ...

http://www.buttholesurfers.com/

http://ubl.artistdirect.com/music/artist/card/0,,410536,00.html

The cruel affliction of such a young person saddens us all. But think about the courage and perseverance required of the oncologists who must live day after day with the constant drain on their mental and emotional reserves of having to keep trying to help an endless succession of such patients.

But think about the courage and perseverance required of the oncologists who must live day after day with the constant drain on their mental and emotional reserves of having to keep trying to help an endless succession of such patients.

The professional trials and tribulations of a highly paid medical specialist don't even begin to compare with those of someone who has to live with the consequences of a colostomy, Bill. However, I will concede that an oncologist with a colostomy would receive my sympathy.

Dear CK Excuse me, but you are full of shit. If you think the oncologists don't get deeply involved with patients, no matter how hard they try to avoid it, you are seriously mistaken.

In reply to:

---

However, I will concede that an oncologist with a colostomy would receive my sympathy.

---

Well my sympathies go out to the person left holding the bag... There are times when clinic is so busy, however, that a Foley catheter and a temporary colostomy would be items of convenience!

But enough jesting. The patients I feel most sorry for are the terminally ill young adults. They are on the verge of the freedom of adulthood and they know they are never going to have it. They're never going to get married, go to Paris or London, have their own kids, publish a novel, play the role of Hamlet, discover a new species of jellyfish, see the Pyramids, graduate from West Point... Whatever their dreams are, they have lived long enough to dream them but not long enough to realize them. As pitiful as it is to see a very young child with a terminal illness, they don't quite know what they're missing compared to the young adult. (My opinion -- I could be wrong.) On the other hand, when you cure a patient's cancer you can feel good about being able to rescue all that possibility -- or at least feel good about having played a small part in its rescue.

Bill, no matter how deeply the specialists "get involved" with their patients, at the end of the day they can go home and don't have to live with the direct consequences of the illnesses the patients have. An oncologist worried about a patient with a colostomy doesn't even begin to have a problem in comparison with the problems the patient with the colostomy has.

Get real.

Is it significant, MG, that you waited for your 100th post to "come out"?

Also, I wonder about your name, Modest Goddess. One who describes herself as a "Modest Goddess" is asserting how she wishes to be perceived, not who she is. I may call myself "Adonis" and, by any objective standard, upon comparison with the physical attributes of other men, I may be admirably truthful, but I would not be "modest".

"Modesty" is not the same thing as "humility", of course. "Modesty" is an affectation and, therefore, inherently dishonest. "Humility", on the other hand, is like verdigris on a bronze statue. It develops with age. You might call it the wisdom of the bronze.

Verdigris, like moss etching the features of a stone, has a depth of character, albeit undesigned, which grows beyond the hand or vision of the artist.

"Humility" is like that, wouldn't you say, MG? It is a resonance with truth encountered beneath the surface, an etching of the unconscious beyond the will of its host. In humility, we all apprehend, instinctively, a natural beauty, do we not, a grace one cannot be born into, quite unlike the beauty of a flower, or a nude model posing for an audience.

I wonder if this is the beauty Keats was thinking of so famously, MG. "Beauty is truth, truth beauty. This is all we know of life, and all we need to know."

Dear semperon -- whomever you may be:

Once again a veteran ayleur posts anonymously -- in the illustrious tradition of RumshotGiles et al. ASp and musick have recently objected to this tactic, where they perceived it to exist [citations below], and they would (I trust) find it equally offensive in your employ. On that, I fully agree with them.

The above concerns your tactics. On your substantive point, see separate response below.

ASp: "who are you, anyway?"
musick: "I truly hope I never find out why someone would ..."
http://wordsmith.org/board/showthreaded.pl?Cat=&Board=miscellany&Number=63600
http://wordsmith.org/board/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=announcements&Number=53065

Semperon, let me quote something said earlier:

Did you have to wake dogs that were nappin'?
Did you have to get just one more slap in?
When you got the notion
To re-stir commotion,
You ought to have thought what would happen.

It's a shame that you never consult,
Before dragging in words that insult.
Can you leave it alone?
When you picked at that bone,
What did you think would result?

I'm willing to let us forget it.
Just leave it; don't trouble to edit.
But if you again flame dear,
It's not me to blame dear:
If you seek a fight, you will get it.

This is the third time I've responded with rhymed humor to attacks on mod-god. There will not be a fourth time. If quiet humor will not restrain you, then one must be more forceful -- on your head be it.

Dear Keiva, I can assure you that there are no "tactics" in my employ.

Altho I am new to this Board, I have been around long enough to observe that ASp and Musick are not universally regarded as authorities on proper practice. In fact, it seems you are fresh from a dispute with Musick on a matter of personal conduct yourself. I have no interest in meddling in that muddle, Keiva. I am simply appealing to your sense of fair play.

As for "Modest Goddess", if she has something to say, I am sure she will say it for herself. One can ride to the rescue of a fair damsel, but one is not always rewarded for the effort. Your chivalry is picturesque but unwarranted, dear sir.

I thank you for your judgment as to when individuals should be supported in the face of attack, and when left to fend for themselves. Having been the attackee and knowing how that feels, I do feel well-positioned to exercise my own judgment, of course giving all due consideration (but not binding effect) to your views.

In this particular case we had a pooh-bah critiquing a new member. I am near enough in time to the latter status to well remember how that feels.

Is there not ample precedent here that two (or many more) people may speak to the same side of a dispute -- as was most recently done without objection when a fair number of folks commented forcibly on my behavior? Sauce for the goose, you know.

But your point is calmly expressed, for which I thank you. May I call you "Adonis"?

well put semperon.

you comments, well, they could be called a bit strong.. but they are out in public, and very politely phrased, and our modest godess seem to be a person in touch with her self, and able to stand up for her self.

as to her modesty, (or anyone modesty) clothing, or the lack of it, does not in and of its self make one modest. I know, with a nude model, i do not see the person, only the body. when our godess models, she does not strut her stuff, but rather almost the oposite, she remove not only her clothes, but her personality.. she becomes a form. it has to be, i think, one of the most self effacing activities around.

and she has only slowly made indication of her skill with words. she mentions her $100 yearly royalty check, for the writers union, payment for all the time her books have been checked out of the library. but she hasn't yet plugged her book-- but these are just my thoughts.

i don't think our godess needs me to defend her, and i don't even think your words are anything that she need to mount a defence against.

we have at had some threads, where we have shared some personal information, including clues and open statements about our 'handles'-- or self chosen names.

your early post verged on that subject. semperon semper on
always on... always logged in? (if so, you hid the fact)
always on.. on drugs? on call?

you never sleep? or take meals? calls of nature don't call you away from your computer? and even if you are always on line, you're not always on AWAD.

forget being adonis (and here's a tip, i don't look anything at all like helen of troy!) but do tell us about being always on.

discussions about abstract concepts, like the nature of time, have been some of the most wonderful thread going.

maybe, we should have a thread about the nature of modesty, or humility, or even beauty. there are many, and some we have touched upon, tsuwm short essay on the spirit is a fine example.

May I call you Adonis?
I prefer "Abdonis". [Just putting in a plug for my next million dollar idea.]

P.S. I intended no offence to "Modest Goddess" and I hope she took none. I thought I was taking her issue, the distinction between appearing nude and feeling naked, seriously.

It occurred to me that one's self-perception goes to the heart of MoGo's issue, and, so long as we are taking it all off in public (so to speak), it occurred to me that we should speak the naked truth.

Whatever "Modest Goddess" is, she is not "modest". And certainly that is not because she poses in the nude. That is because she has styled herself the "Modest Goddess". That is her nom de plume. If I saw it up in lights over a Men's Club, I might buy her a beer.

In my opinion, dear Keiva, modesty is highly over-rated. The meek may inherit the earth but they can't escape the glass ceiling. I for one am happy to see MoGo shorn of her tiresome pretence. I suspect it must be a relief for MoGo as well. She should know we accept her just as she is.

Besides, we have seen Modest Goddess handle herself under fire, dear Keiva, and she needs no-one's protection. So, let's relax and enjoy the show.

A hearty welcome semperon!

...musick have recently objected to this tactic... Nowhere in that post do I say that I object. Your inability to understand should have taught you to stop interpreting by now. What did I tell you about taking my words out of context?

Now were talking about language, aren't we!

...Musick are not universally regarded as authorities on proper practice. You are so beautifuly truthful with those words, I'm gonna cry! As a matter of fact, there is no such thing as "proper practice" in a general sense. Yours is yours, and mine is mine (and sometimes it's Keiva's when he's trying to figure out what I'm saying).

But always the twain shall meet! Kinda like "nude" and "naked".