probably an easy question but i have been wondering exactly where the phrase "it's not over till the fat lady sings" comes from. it sounds like there may be some connection with opera but with expressions you never know.
> probably an easy question but i have been wondering exactly where the phrase "it's not over till the fat lady sings"
comes from. it sounds like there may be some connection with opera but with expressions you never know.
I can't believe my luck! I know this and I'm not even American......
After a baseball game is over the crowd stand to sing the 'Star-spangled banner'. In the old-days this would be sung by (as you stated) a fat lady opera singer. So the game wasn't over until the 'fat lady sang'.
Thanks to my many US friends who told me this anecdote while teaching me the fascinating ins and outs of baseball.
thanks for clearing that up, and thanks for the modesty as well. of course we both know this question stemmed from my ignorance rather than your "luck" in knowing the answer...
unfortunately my only knowledge of baseball is of leslie nielsen posing as enrico palazzo in one of the naked gun movies. i just love that name enrico palazzo!
And I thought that it was the large female at the end of the Morecambe and Wise show in the seventies - I'm not sure she ever got to sing though.
I heard a reference to this on my favourite Hollywood game show - "Hollywood Squares". Well worth a watch. Seriously!
The way it was told, a sports commentator used it towards the end of a very close-scoring game, which could have gone either way. The expression is believed to have emanated there. Refer to Keith Olbermann, who was answering the question (he is a US sportscaster, for the information of non-US members)
It is also used, I am told, at US election time, when apparently the last results to come are from Texas - the state is, for some reason, known as "The Fat Lady".
I would first like to point out that I don't know the exact origin of the expression, but I bet Brünhilde is in there somewhere.
Secondly, I'd like to welcome Rubrick back into our throng after his sojourn to the tropics.
Now, then.
Think about this: In what sport, anywhere in the world (except perhaps at Hogwarts Academy of Witchcraft and Wizardry; I'm not far enough along in the Harry Potter series yet to know and defer to Jo aka jmh for elucidation on that point) do fans hang around after a game to sing a national anthem?
In this US of A, the national anthem is sung BEFORE the first pitch, after which you can often hear a resounding "Play Ball!" emanating from the stands. Rubrick, perhaps you're confusing your story with the quote attributed to the great Yogi Berra: "It ain't over till it's over." (and as for your American friends, best stick with me kid, I won't steer ya wrong
so the plot thickens...
is it possible that the national anthem is sung AFTER some games, like championship cup games?
i did have the feeling that the final death aria in many operas might have something to do with it, but the fat lady in that case sings all through the opera, not just at the end. that doesn't seem to match the feeling of the expression which seems to connote that the fat lady sings only at the end.
the other thing i was wondering is whether there was some music hall connection. unfortunately i know nothing about music hall shows. is it possible the phrase was borrowed for baseball from a source like this?
Here's some comments from Nigel Rees who hosts a UK Radio 4 programme called "Quote Unquote". He seems to think that it relates to the singer at the end of a World Series Game (in the fifties?) but also to Opera. It looks like the jury is still out.
http://www.executive-speaker.com/rees0003.htmlHere'a another couple of opinions:
"Often associated with Wagnerian opera, specifically Brunhilde’s ‘Fire Song,’ in ‘Die Walkure,’ and the fact that Wagner may seem interminable to nonaficionados"
"Originated in the United States in the 1970s. Bartlett’s ‘Familiar Quotations’ attributes the coinage to San Antonio TV sports commentator Dan Cook. Ralph Graves claims in the August 1991 issue of ‘Smithsonian’ that it has its roots in Southern proverbial lore: ‘Church ain’t out till the fat lady sings."
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-ita1.htm"Dan Cook, a sports writer with a San Antonio newspaper, was at a baseball or football match which was drawing to a close, with the outcome seemingly inevitable.
Another sports writer said (in the way that sports writers do, always seeking the colourful phrase): "The rodeo isn't over 'till the bull riders ride" and Cook riposted with "The opera ain't over 'till the fat lady sings""
"When I was young the phrase was: "It's not over till the fat lady dies." This was in reference to operas which had plump divas who sang the main roles and who invariably died at the end of the opera. The story is that a father took his child to the opera and the bored child kept asking when it would be over and the father answered: "It isn't over till the fat lady dies." This actually makes far more sense than the present usage which doesn't make sense at all: "It's not over till the fat lady sings." This is usually the beginning of the opera and not the end at all. How do you think it got changed? Why is the present pointless usage persisting?"
http://www.shu.ac.uk/web-admin/phrases/bulletin_board/4/messages/1134.html
The short answer is "no, it's not an easy question"!!!!
jmh, great article. thankyou. it suggests that this was a situation WAITING for an expression i.e. wait for the end. but the opera connection is dismissed too soon, i think. there are operas where the heroine does sing a big aria at the end, purcell's "dido and anaeas" is one. in tosca she does sing, but not exactly an aria, but puccini was not a conventional aria/recitative man. in many operas the heroine dies before the end of the opera, like othello, and she can sing a hugely lengthy aria while dying. this is just asking for someone to make fun of it. and compare "it's not over till the fat lady sings" with "it's not over till the short tenor in platform shoes sings" for colour.
but what is the church connection? could someone enlighten me as to what service concluded with a fat lady singing?
and with bill clinton and andre agassi chipping in could it be this expression is gaining popularity when it's exactly the wrong era to be referring to "fat ladies" at all?
I'm afraid 'brick is pulling your leg on this one. I've been listening to and watching baseball for about 50 years and I've never heard anything sung at the end of the game. This is a reference to an opera not being over until the last aria is sung, usually by the fat lady; it is an unfortunate truism that the diva is usually... zaftig -- that's how they generate those booming, dulcet tones.
Once again, Quinion has the real story on this one, including the relation to Yogi Berra's "It ain't over till it's over."
http://www.quinion.com/words/qa/qa-ita1.htm
tsuwm, thanks for reinforcing what jo and I had responded, and for re-posting one of her links in case others might have missed it.
yeah, by the time I got to the end of the thread I realized I had just mostly repeated y'all, but I tied everything together so well that I thought I'd just leave it -- hope you weren't inconvenienced too much. 8-)
does this mean "it's not over till the fat lady sings" (from opera) became fused with "it's not over till it's over" (from baseball) to become the use-anytime expression we know today?
i'm still not sure when and where the expression made its debut.
incidentally, singing opera involves the stomach muscles: as the diaphragm descends the lungs fill with air. for the diaphragm to descend the stomach has to expand. just like how you breathe when you're sleeping on your back. many of the "fat ladies" aren't fat, just exercising their developed stomach muscles.
a former girlfriend (!) was informed "you'll have to lose your waist" by her singing teacher.
fortunately i myself never had one to lose.
I don't think there's any 'fusion' except for 'confusion', as in Berra's mind when he said some of these things.
>>yeah, by the time I got to the end of the thread I realized I had just mostly repeated y'all, but I tied everything together so well that I thought I'd just leave it -- hope you weren't inconvenienced too much. 8-) <<
Not at all! I don't know what we of the weaker sex would do without a bearded one to form a coherent synthesis of and lend credibility to our thoughts - especially on something like baseball.
always depending on the kindness of strangers,
Blanche
If we create a new expression "it ain't over until the fat lady croaks" it will save all the explanations. You can either picture a diva with a sore throat or one throwing herself off the ramparts, like Tosca. Either way it makes a lot more sense!
(Alternatively we could use "circumferentially challenged").
Forgive my ignorance, but who is Yogi Berra? He seems to get quoted a lot but I've no idea who he is. A baseball player? Rock musician? Hippy? All three?
Bingley
> Forgive my ignorance, but who is Yogi Berra? He seems to get quoted a lot but I've no idea who he is. A baseball
player? Rock musician? Hippy? All three?
Lawrence 'Yogi' Berra was one of the all-time great catchers (the guy dressed like an armadillo standing behind the batsman) in American Baseball and played for the New York Yankees (alongside Joe DiMaggio et al) for almost twenty years before becoming their manager. Despite his colourful nickname he was not named after the cartoon character - rather it was the othere way around! A colleague remarked on the way he walked- 'Just like an Indian nsakecharmer!' The name stuck and the rest, as they say, is arbitrary. I'll leave it to the aficionados to give the statistics.
> I'm afraid 'brick is pulling your leg on this one. I've been listening to and watching baseball for about 50 years and I've
never heard anything sung at the end of the game.
Well, sorry about that. Looks like we're doing a conga of leg-pulling cos I was leg-pulled about this long before I posted my first reply. I see that I have only contributed to a long line of misinformation. In future I will double-check my references before posting. Hark! I hear the dulcet, warbling tones of a well-defined diva. Now what can that mean??
I didn't realise that the point of this board was to be right all this time. I'm afraid many of my postings are far too much "stream of consciousness" to be correct all the time. Surely we learn by our mistakes and it is reassuring (and sometimes very amusing) when one of the board's "authorities" makes a bloomer.
Keep making mistakes everyone and have fun!
After all I didn't become an "addict" by being correct all the time (or very often, actually).
>>Hark! I hear the dulcet, warbling tones of a well-defined diva. Now what can that mean??<<
That means I'm singing, 'Brick! For you I might sing
When Irish Eyes are Smilin'.
I am sorry I don't know the derivation of this phrase, but I think I can show my opinion on why it uses "fat lady" but not "slim lady" or some else. It does have some connection with opera, and in my memories, the lady who sings well and high-pitchedly is usually fat in old operas. And moreover, customarily the last program in an opera will be the best one to show the end and lead to the climax of the opera. Do you think so?
Jessie Xu
windflower,
you're absolutely right. it takes a strong body to sing at high pitches for long periods of time. there aren't many thin opera singers, especially in the neck department. but there are some.
and we did seem to come round to the idea that the phrase must have had some influence from opera.
keep posting!
>Keep making mistakes everyone and have fun!
And remember: "Ninety percent of this game is half mental!"
"When you get to the fork in the road, take it."