How many of you refer to the words of a single song as its lyric?

And how many refer to the same as its lyrics?

I've been corrected here by my language king in my reference to the song's words as its "lyrics," where I should have referred to the song's "lyric." This was news to me, but I do love having my language turn toward a new place.

Just wondering whether any of you have made the same mistake I have. And especially, you, tsuwm!! Which do you use, your Lexicoughable Highness?

Best regards,
WordWright

whether any of you have made the same mistake I have

And that would be believing your language king?

Hmmmmm. Now that you bring it up ... when I was singing (for fun and profit) I would say :
"I have memorized the lyrics of that new song." However, when speaking about a song I might say "It has a beautiful lyric." -or- "The lyrics of that song are beautiful." -or even - "That new song has a beautiful lyric."
Make of it what you will!
Musick - where are you?

>Which do you use, your Lexicoughable Highness?

I cannot carry a tune, why should I bother trying to drag the words around?

-joe (caco) phony

My dictionary says (usually plural) the words of a song, as distinguished from the music.
Sound like your ped- ant put his ped in his mouth. Definition of being positive - being wrong at the top of your voice.

Dear wwh,

My latest edition of the American Heritage shows lyric as the words of a song, and in parentheses there's a statement about lyrics used as the same. There's no usage note, unfortunately, so it appears that the board thought it no big deal. Don't have the dictionary with me here, but I could look it up.

To wow: On the usage in the phrase, "It has a beautiful lyric.." (or something you wrote like that): That seems to be the type of use referred to in the AHD. I've never knowingly heard that usage, but my ears are open now to see whether I ever hear it.

This could simply be a case of language-in-progress, ever-changing, adaptive, misused, and, finally, transformed into something it wasn't before.

Best regards,
WordAwake

Hereabouts, "lyrics" means "words" and "lyric" means "melodic." As Wordwind said, "...language-in-progress..."

Tsyganka

The popular song, as a unique American art form has, like the German Lied, rules as formal as the sonnet. Its form consists of a front section (I forget what that's called), which is often unremarkable and little heard, followed by the "verse", which is the part which most people would recognize. Where, indeed, is Musick, who could enlighten us further?

intro, verse & chorus

http://www.chordcoach.com/songwriting/simple/

Who needs intro?
"C, A-min, F, G" ... all you need.

Drat! Muh kid loosened one'a muh gee-tar strings, an' he won't tell me which one.

WW, you're back! Utter delight! I've always heard song lyrics. I can't imagine saying lyric unless it was a one-word song!

waxing lyrical because wordwind's back.

Bingley

Dear Keiva,

C, a, F, G = "Heart and Soul" yourself to death, ad infinitum!!! and since I don't know Latin, I'll make an uneducated guess that ad infinitum means something like "into infinity" ! :)

Beatles Regards,
WordWooed

Actually I always refer to the words of a song as its 'words'.

'Lyrics' would only refer to the words of the songs in musicals.

I went to an e-mail written by a musician friend of mine for my answer. He wrote to me,

"I wrote a song while I was in the hospital. I have the lyrics finished and some of the chords. We are going to try recording it tonight."

This is as close to an expert opinion as I can get on the subject. Unfortunately, he passed away about two months after recording the song.

My $0.02 would go towards buying the "s" at the end of lyrics. In casual usage I would almost always say "I can never understand the lyrics to that song," but I think deep down I know that the singular is the "correct" form.

Note that you (well, I, anyway) would never question that the singular "melody" is appropriate when referring to the collection of notes that make up a song , but most of us want to make the words plural.

the singular "melody" is appropriate when referring to the collection of notes that make up a song , but most of us want to make the words plural.

I rest my case.

the singular "melody" is appropriate when referring to the collection of notes that make up a song , but most of us want to make the words plural.

I rest my case.

YeahBut©, my point was -- melody (singular) for collection of notes, why not lyric (singular) for collection of words?

the collection of notes that make up a song , but most of us want to make the words plural

'Lyrics' would only refer to the words of the songs in musicals.

I beg to differ... that there is what they call the libretto.

I believe, FB, 'libretto' is more often used for the words of an opera. I think that in the case of a B'way musical, they generally call it the 'book'. Nice simple Anglo-Saxon term.

Bob, your idea makes sense to me. I have no doubt that "book" is proper, and would have thought that "libretto" is not -- but on googling, I do find "Broadway" and "libretto" used together quite often.

Scanning through the sites, my sense is that "libretto" is used to mean the detailed story-line of a musical, and "lyrics" to mean the specific words sung when the characters break into song. For example, "In 1948 Loesser was approached by fledgling Broadway producers Cy Feuer and Ernest Martin to write music and lyrics to George Abbott's libretto for an adaptation of the classic Brandon Thomas play Charley's Aunt." But I am very tentative on this. Comments?

As a singer/songwriter and musical-theatre performer I've always used and heard lyrics except when referring to a specific word, phrase, or line, in which case we might say, "I'm forgetting the lyric," "What's that lyric?", "Let's change that lyric," something akin to the way an actor might say "my lines" when referring to a large portion of a script, but "I dropped a line" or "I love that line" when referring to one spot or, well, one line. Of course, on the published sheet music it usually reads Music by: and Words by: (a distended period here?...I've never had to place a period after a colon before, how's that work? )

I've never had to place a period after a colon before, how's that work?

While holding the shift key down press the colon/semi-colon key, then release the shift key and press the period/greater-than key.

Or either that or you could interpolate a long parenthetical phrase and put the period after the close paren, one.

So, then, the key to this is that a period is greater than a colon?

a period is greater than a colon?

It's more efficient; it accomplishes more with less.

While holding the shift key down press the colon/semi-colon key, then release the shift key and press the period/greater-than key.

How nice of you Faldage to share your knowledge of technique with others. You inspire me to repay you in kind.

Put your index finger on that key with the brackets pointing to the right...now, mash. Next, type out S-M-I-L-,.. oh, you know how to do that? Silly me, I thought you had forgotten. Please ignore this post.

Put your index finger on that key with the brackets pointing to the right...now, mash.

I don't use emoticons!

Keiva writes;

Scanning through the sites, my sense is that "libretto" is used to mean the detailed story-line of a musical, and "lyrics" to mean the specific words sung when the characters break into song. For example, "In 1948 Loesser was approached by fledgling Broadway producers Cy Feuer and Ernest Martin to write music and lyrics to George Abbott's libretto for an adaptation of the classic Brandon Thomas play Charley's Aunt." But I am very tentative on this. Comments?

If the lyric is the words of a song, as a melody is the collective notes of one, then a libretto would have lyrics and melodies because it's a collection of songs in the plural. A lyric from the libretto would be a single song from the collection.

Check the dictionaries. There's precedent there for using lyric as the words of a song, though we seem to agree here that most say lyrics for words of a single song.

Collapsing here,
OrB~

a libretto ... it's a collection of songs

My thought -- unsure of this -- is that the "libretto" includes the words spoken, as well as the words sung.

Libretto: All words sung

Quasi libretto (my term): All words sung and a few sung

Libretto; and script: All words sung; and all words spoken


But, really, librettos should include all the lyrics for the songs and recitatives in an opera, shouldn't they? I guess it's come to mean something different, but, strictly speaking, are librettos and their inclusive lyrics really from the world of opera?

Really wondering what they are,
OrB

...but, strictly speaking, are librettos and their inclusive lyrics really from the world of opera?

Faldage would probably tell you it's Italian for "little book." But far be it from me to speak for him... we all know that can get us in trouble

From the record jacket of My Fair Lady, Original Cast Recording:

" book and lyrics by : Alan Jay Lerner
music by : Frederic Loewe"

The Oklahoma cover says
"Music by RICHARD ROGERS Lyrics by OSCAR HAMMERSTEIN II"

West Side Story reports
"Music by LEONARD BERSNTEIN
Lyrics by STEPHEN SONDHEIM
Book by ARTHUR LAURENTS"

Libretto seems to be reserved for opera and operetta, and includes all the words spoken and sung. Broadway designates them - and credits them - individually. Mix and match. Seems to take different skills to do words and songs both.

lyrics by : Alan Jay Lerner

But Oklahoma, West side Story, et al are collections of songs, so it would be correct to say, "the lyrics of the songs are by ..." whereas it would be correct to say, "the lyric to 'Maria' is by Sondheim."

Please, people, can't we all just get along?

Once upon a time a local newspaper columnist ran a little puzzle contest a` la "26 L of the A means what?" type. He had the foresight to include in the instructions the disclaimer "The correct answers are the ones kept in the top right-hand drawer of my office desk."

There doesn't seem to be much consistency in the way people - even professionals - refer to these things. We could (just did) spend a lot of time pointing out all the examples of this, I suppose.

Please, people, can't we all just get along?

You want we should rejoice in our diversity, already?

the singular "melody" is appropriate when referring to the collection of notes ... but we want to make the words of a song plural.
That's because the words ARE plural, Flatlander. We don't perceive a succession of notes as individual notes (unless, of course, we are the composer). But each word in a song has recognizable meaning. Hence we think of the words of a song in the plural and we refer to them as the "lyrics" of a song. This is quite logical and any convention which flies in the face of logic will sooner or later succumb to the weight of that logic, I submit.

I'd like to hear a lexicographer's take on this lyric/lyrics controversy. Have a bit of history here.

Now where could we find a lexicographer? Hmmmmm....I see a vision rising! And it has a great cape! And on its chest is emblazoned--yes, I can see it taking form--a great 't'!!!

It's a bird...no, it's a plane...it's tsuwmperman!!!

OK, tsuwmperman! Tell us the tales of those times when lyric has been used to mean the words of a song!

Best regards,
WordWaiting

A lyric was originally the words of a lyric poem suitable for setting to the music of a lyre, as per the roving troubadours of old. This is from Webster's Collegiate:

1 lyric \'lir-ik\ adj 1: suitable for singing to the lyre or for being set to music and sung 2 a: expressing direct usu. intense personal emotion<~poetry> b: EXUBERANT, RHAPSODIC 3 of an opera singer: having a light voice and a melodic style -- compare DRAMATIC

2 lyric n 1: a lyric composition; specif: a lyric poem 2 pl the words of a popular song or musical-comedy number

Note 2:2 stresses plural for the words of a song

lyricist n: a writer of lyrics

lyrist n : 1. \'ly(e)r-est\ a player on the lyre 2. \'lir-est\ : LYRICIST

(Oh, and lyre is from the ME lire, OF lyra, and is derived from Greek...so there's something for you, Dr. Bill)

One last, probably futile, but sincere cry to tsuwmperman:

Oh, yoooooooo hoooooooo! twsuwmperman???

Can you find a single instance, oh, great flying WordMan, of lyric being used anywhere in literature as the collective words in a single song?

If anyone can, you, man of words that can cut through steel, can!!

Best regards,
WordsWasted

Anu has spoken:

The first musical comedy to win the Pulitzer Prize, "Of Thee I Sing"... (music: George Gershwin, lyrics: Ira Gershwin, libretto: George Kaufman and Morris Ryskind)

(from today's theme word)

Applause for wofa's performance! [clap-clap-clap -e]

I'm bringing this thread back up because I'm wondering how many of you heard Jennifer Lopez announce the contending songs for the Academy Awards?

I have it from a good source that she announced each song, "music by ________________ (whomever)"....and, get ready for this, "lyric by _______________(whomever)." And she used the word "lyric" five times--consistent in using lyric for words of the songs rather than lyrics.

Did anyone else here notice this? And, if so, it makes me wish I could contact her script writer for the awards and find out why he/she chose "lyric"--is he/she of the old school? I'm very curious because what I believe is going on is there is an old-fashioned preference for lyric, but the masses are moving against the old rule--and, when the masses so move, those poor old dogs of rules eventually lie down and die.

Best regards,
WordWorrier

it makes me wish I could contact her script writer for the awards

It may well have been this character: http://www.hollywoodsquares.com/whoswho/theregularsbio.asp?CelebID=52

Dear Faldage,

Thanks for the link. I couldn't access Mr. Valanch's link, but the information on the link you provided sure makes it sound possible that he could have written Lopez's script!

I'll continue what will probably be a lifelong interest in the history of the word lyric.

Constantly climbing mole hills,
Wordwind