Wordsmith.org
Posted By: Wordwind Still Another Dumb Question - 12/28/01 10:14 AM
Why do we say, "Eating high on the hog"? Highest on the hog would be its head, and that's all scrapple to me. And the back isn't as nice as its hams or loin meat. (Many apologies to any vegetarians here.)

So, what's so great about what's high on the hog anyway?

Boar regards,
DubDub

Posted By: Jackie Re: Still Another Dumb Question - 12/28/01 01:25 PM
(Many apologies to any vegetarians here.)
Very thoughtful of you, Dear. High on the hog is where the loin chops, the most valuable cuts, come from. Just below the fatback.

You can read about how to slaughter and process a pig here:
http://members.tripod.com/~BayGourmet/pig.txt.
Warning! This is not for the faint-hearted. I've seen hogs killed both on the home farm and commercially, and this article just about made ME sick.



Posted By: Sparteye High on the Hog - 12/30/01 11:27 PM
As Jackie said. In Why You Say It, Webb Garrison says, "But for a real feast, slices [of the hog] must come from high on the hog -- above the center of the animal's leg.

Posted By: wwh Re: High on the Hog - 12/31/01 02:34 PM
You ain't seen nothin' till you see sausage being made. They have the ground up meat (everything except the squeal) piped to a faucet with a tapered faucet, push one end of a roll of casing onto it, turn the knob, and the casing swells and thrashes about like a monstrous snake. All sorts of fantasies evoked.

Posted By: Wordwind Re: High on the Hog - 12/31/01 03:27 PM
All sorts of fantasies evoked.

I'll bet, wwh, I'll just bet.

DubDoubtless


Posted By: Keiva Re: Law and Sausage - 12/31/01 05:02 PM
You ain't seen nothin' till you see sausage being made.
As has been said, "Those who love law or sausage should not view too closely the process by which it is made."

everything except the squeal The phrase is used in Upton Sinclair's description of Chicago's meat packing industry (The Jungle, ch. 3: the tour guide says "They use everything about the hog except the squeal"), but I believe Sinclair was using what was already a commonplace description of the industry's efficiency.

Edit: Ch. 14 of The Jungle makes clear that the phrase predates with that book. In The Yankee of the Yards (1927), a biography of Gustavus Swift, it is at called a "hackneyed remark", with conjecture that it originated with a remark by Swift had been heard to make.

Edit #2: The remark does not mean that Chicago meatpackers systematically adulterated food products with unpalatable parts to the animal. Rather, "The enormous volume of animals meant that even body parts that had formerly been wasted now became commercial products: lard, glue, brushes, candles, soaps." A later federal report listed six hundred separate products produced by the pork and beef packers. The industry required such efficient use of the whole animal, for meat-sales alone did not cover costs of production, without the sales of hides and other by-products.
Posted By: Wordwind Re: Law and Sausage - 12/31/01 05:56 PM
Now I wonder what sort of character, upon having just sat through a public reading of The Jungle, would archly intone, "Proscuitto, anyone?"

Veins of ice, I'd say.

Best regards,
WW

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: Law and Sausage - 12/31/01 08:30 PM
"Those who love law or sausage should not view too closely the process by which it is made."

Believe that was uttered by our old buddy, Otto von Bismarck, aka the Great Unifier of Germany. offered without comment...

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Still Another Dumb Question - 01/01/02 11:13 PM
High on the hog is where the loin chops, the most valuable cuts, come from

true, and this may well be the source of part of the idiom, but it also seems likely that the "hog" referred to is the early british colonial coin (bermuda/hog-money/YCLIU), and that living high off of the hog refers to the "high life" resulting from having money to burn? the phrase "whole hog" likely stems from the same source.

and shouldn't this be in animal safari?

Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 01/01/02 11:21 PM
Posted By: wwh Re: Still Another Dumb Question - 01/02/02 01:25 AM
Dear MaxQ: My dictionary says hogs are pigs that are ready for market.

Posted By: Jackie Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/02/02 01:36 AM
Sweet Max, 'round these parts, hogs are exclusively male pigs. Females are sows. (Sow rhyming with cow.) No farmer I knew would ever say "the hogs" when referring to a group that he knew contained both genders. That would be "the pigs".

Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 01/02/02 01:49 AM
Posted By: consuelo Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/02/02 02:10 AM
My grandpa used to raise pigs. I can still smell that sour pig-slop smell. When I was little, my sister and I used to throw corncobs at the boars. Extra points were awarded for hitting them you-know-where. Boy did they grunt then! And run! Little kids can be so cruel.

Posted By: Keiva Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/02/02 02:53 AM
Jackie, I'd disagree with you on this, and think "hog" means the mature animal, of either gender.

BUT: bartleby-ing indicates that:
-hog can either mean (1a) the animal, whether domesticated or the wild, or (1b) the domesticated animal, but especially one weighing over 54 kilograms (120 pounds)
-boar can either mean the adult male, or the uncastrated male, or the wild boar.
-pig means a member of this biological family, but "especially the domesticated hog ... when young or of comparatively small size."

Ogden Nash claims a different distinction between pig and hog:
Why does the pygmy
Indulge in polygmy?
His tribal dogma
Frowns on monogma.
Monogma's a stigma
To any pigma:
If he goes for monogmy
A pygmy's a hogmy.


Posted By: WhitmanO'Neill Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/02/02 04:11 AM
hogs are exclusively male pigs.

So then males can't be chauvinist pigs, they can only be chauvinist hogs!

Posted By: WhitmanO'Neill Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/02/02 04:25 AM
But Nash had this to say about the pig!

THE PIG

The pig, if I am not mistaken,
Supplies us sausage, ham, and bacon.
Let others say his heart is big--
I call it stupid of the pig.

Ogden Nash
from his collection, "Food."
© 1989 by Frances Nash, Isabel Eberstadt, and Linell Smith


Posted By: Angel Re: Still Another Dumb Question - 01/02/02 04:35 AM
Dear MaxQ: My dictionary says hogs are pigs that are ready for market.

My trusty Webster's says: hog, noun.
1. A pig, esp. one that is full-grown
2. An animal related to the pig, as the peccary.

Now I have never heard of a peccary myself, so in looking that up, I found:
peccary, noun. Either of two species of tropical American animals resembling and related to pigs.

Doesn't this appear to be going in circles?

Posted By: wow Re: Still Another Dumb Question - 01/02/02 02:37 PM
Doesn't this appear to be going in circles?

"Blessed are those who go around in circles for they shall be known as Big Wheels."

Merrily we roll along, roll along, roll along ...."


Posted By: of troy Re: Still Another Dumb Question - 01/02/02 02:53 PM
RE: the peccary.

i've always thought of this as the complete family of pigs.. nowdays, with all sort of "pot bellied" pig being considered house pets, even city folk like me recognize that pigs is a very general term. Peccary is the family of pigs, including wild species of boars, warthogs, and all variety of domesticate pigs. it shows up in lots of the latin names for pigs, so if you know pigs mostly from the zoo, as i do, it actually is a pretty common word.

Posted By: Faldage Save the Pecadillo from Extinction - 01/02/02 03:12 PM
Bumper sticker available in the late '60s.

Posted By: Keiva Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/02/02 04:53 PM
WON cites Ogden Nash from his collection, "Food." © 1989 by Frances Nash, Isabel Eberstadt, and Linell Smith

Internal evidence (his poems) indicates that these there women are his wife and two daughers. Lovely examples:

- linell and isabel: http://littlecalamity.tripod.com/Poetry/Children.html the 4th & 12th poems
- isabel: http://www.plagiarist.com/poetry/?wid=530
- frances: unfortunately, none on-line
Posted By: Sparteye Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/02/02 04:58 PM
According to this glossary, http://checc.sph.unc.edu/rooms/school/whole_hog/glossary.html

Boar - A male hog used for breeding purposes. Boars weigh about 500 pounds.

Farrow - A litter of pigs; giving birth. The hog industry uses the expression "Farrow to Finish" to describe operations that contain pigs from birth to market ready.

Feeder pig - A weaned pig up to about 10 to 12 weeks of age, weighing 40 to 50 pounds. Feeder pigs are brought to market weight during the finishing process

Piglet - Common term for a baby pig.

Sow - A female hog used for breeding purposes. Sows generally weigh between 450 and 500 pounds. Some hog operations specialize in handling sows and their litters only.

Swine - Another term for hog.


The glossary does not define "hog," but the implication of the definitions of "boar" and "sow" is that "hog" encompasses both sexes and describes a domesticated pig raised for food. I will try to remember to call my pig-farmer friend for more explication.






Posted By: wwh Re: Hogmanay - 01/02/02 05:15 PM
For a discussion of "Hogmanay" see Takeourwordforit at:

http://www.takeourword.com/Issue109.html Scroll down to Spotlight

Posted By: tsuwm Re: Hogmanay - 01/02/02 05:26 PM
>For a discussion of "Hogmanay"...

thus making any connection to "hog money" an afterwit.

welcome back[whiter than white]again[/whiter than white], caradea!]
Posted By: wwh Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/02/02 06:14 PM
Dear Sparteye: "Boar - A male hog used for breeding purpose" Same as using a steer for breeding purposes.

Posted By: Faldage Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/02/02 06:22 PM
Dear Dr. Bill

Same as using a steer for breeding purposes

You have uncovered a reference that claims hog implies that a ball disconnectomy has been performed?

Posted By: wwh Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/02/02 06:43 PM
Dear Faldage: I doubt very much that you would care to eat boar meat, unless ground extra fine. You couldn't put a fork in the gravy. A few prize boars are kept for breeding purposes. I can't remember the name for immature male swine, but almost all of them are castrated very young. The sow we had was capable of inflicting grievous injury on anyone molesting her litter. I'm glad the vet did it. That sow could with her snout lift a pine log ten inches in diameter and fifteen feet long, that I hitched to pen wire bottom, like it was a toothpick. Fortunate it always fell back in place, and she did not get out.
Goddam boars are so dangerous I would not have one as part of our oversized 4H project.

Posted By: Faldage Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/02/02 06:54 PM
I doubt very much that you would care to eat boar meat

Obelix loves it.



Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 01/02/02 07:13 PM

Posted By: wwh Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/02/02 07:53 PM
I went through a number of sites about pigs, including a long detailed one about potbellied pigs as pets.
I found a number of terms I had forgotten. Birth of litter is called "farrowing". A young male that has been castrated is called a "barrow". A female is a "gilt" until her second pregnancy. The genus is Sus scrofa. The "scrofa" reminded me of "scrofula" a condition that afflicted lexicographer Sam Johnson, in which tuberculosis causes lymph glands in neck to enlarge greatly, and sometimes become open sores.

One more time: hogs are mature animals ready for market, and no boars are wanted.

I just remembered that scrofula was also called "King's Evil" in belief that the touch of the King could cure it.

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Hogwash! [laugh] - 01/02/02 09:42 PM
All seriousness aside, back in my callow yute when I was a commodities reporter, I took with great glee the term "hog run." It evoked to me greased pig contests in county fairs. Now, anybody know what a hog run really is? Submit your definitions here.

Posted By: wwh Re: Hogwash! [laugh] - 01/02/02 11:04 PM
Dear AS: I had visions of a "cattle drive" of pigs. I could find only one mention of "hog run" on Internet, and it appeared to relate to number of hogs delivered to packing plants in a state.

From the news story of February 7, 1995: "The Iowa daily "hog run" was 107,000 head yesterday,
below 113,000 the previous week, according to the Department of Agriculture. The run is estimated
at 100,000 head today, below 105,000 last week, the USDA said." So why would *less* hogs going
to market have any significance to us vegetarians?

Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 01/02/02 11:25 PM
Posted By: Faldage Re: Hogwash! Speaking for my ASp - 01/03/02 01:46 PM
Dr. Bill;

Your definition of hog run sounds like what she would have covered during her commodities days.

An ASide:

If you want to get the attention of some high level executive and you can't make it through the front four, just say it's about the pork bellies he bought 6 months ago and did he want them delivered to his place of business or his home address?


Posted By: RhubarbCommando Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/03/02 02:57 PM
I like boar, on those rare occasions when I can get some.

I quite agree with you, Max. Why don't you come across here, where we can get it without too much effort? Mind you, the "Wild" boar that is sold in the shops here is all raised domestically - there is a "Wild Boar Farm" - complete with sows, piglets and hogs - about ten miles from where I live. Goodness knows how they can get away with that description under the Trades Descriptions Act!

Posted By: wwh Re: Hogwash! Speaking for my ASp - 01/03/02 03:01 PM
The real fun would be to have the equivalent number of live porkers delivered to him at the office.

Posted By: wwh Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/03/02 03:10 PM
Dear Max and RC: Both of you must have extra effective dentition. My father (what's in a name) used to bring home game and "hang" it to let bacterial enzymes tenderize the meat, giving it a "gamey" flavor he enjoyed, but to me was equivalent of eating road kills. I do not apologize for my effete preference for the modern tender meats obtained from animals that did not have to work for a living.

Posted By: Faldage Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/03/02 03:16 PM
Parbly, not unlike catfish, (how's that for the logical double negative?) it's all in how you cook it.

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: Hog run - 01/03/02 03:17 PM
Spot on, Dr. Bill. But you cheated.

Posted By: RhubarbCommando Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/03/02 03:20 PM
As I say, Dr Bill, the "Wild Boar" of which I speak is rather tamer than myself, and sits around in a field all day, waiting for the farmer to bring the pail down. Hence it is just about as tender as any other pork - although it does have a strnger flavour.

As to wild meat, well, it does depend what sort of "work" it has to do, I guess. Personally, I am a great admirer of the flesh of rabbits (again, apols to veggie ayleurs) which I used to catch in large numbers at one time. That is very rarely tough and makes a very nourishing meal. Hare is even better, when you can get it.

Now, there is a set of strange names for you - to do with rabbits and hares. Baby hares are "leverets", and they don't burrow, but live in "forms." Baby rabbits are "kits" (or "kittens" in some parts of UK)

Posted By: Anonymous Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/03/02 04:04 PM
Faldage queries:
In reply to:

You have uncovered a reference that claims hog implies that a ball disconnectomy has been performed?


i stumbled upon this, from the 1913 Webster's, while looking for substantiation of the hog/coin theory:

Hog (Page: 697)

Hog (?), n. [Prob. akin to E. hack to cut, and meaning orig., a castrated boar; cf. also W. hwch swine, sow, Armor. houc'h, hoc'h. Cf. Haggis, Hogget, and Hoggerel.]

1. (Zoöl.) A quadruped of the genus Sus, and allied genera of Suidæ; esp., the domesticated varieties of S. scrofa, kept for their fat and meat, called, respectively, lard and pork; swine; porker; specifically, a castrated boar; a barrow...


This early reference also provides some interesting alternative definitions, including an unshorn sheep, a rough, flat scrubbing broom for scrubbing a ship's bottom under water, and a paper-making device of some sort.

{YCLIUhttp://machaut.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/WEBSTER.sh?WORD=hog)

Posted By: Wordwind Boss Hog - 01/03/02 05:58 PM
TANGENT ALERT

What about 'Boss Hog'? He was a character on some show my dad used to watch. What is a 'boss hog' in Pigland? Is there some kind of dominant hog that bosses the others around? And how is this behavior demonstrated? Or is this just piggy poetic with the "o" in boss and hog providing the large measure of oral/aural satisfaction, such as it is?

Back to my dad. He always calls one of his many hummingbirds he feeds here at the farm each summer, "Boss Hog." There is always one very dominant bird that defends at least two feeders at a time so that no hummingbird dare try to stay long enough for even a modest dip.

Best regards,
WW

Posted By: wwh Re: Boss Hog - 01/03/02 08:10 PM
Dear WW: I think your "Boss Hogg" came from TV series featuring an ludicrously corrupt comic sheriff, who was always foiled by a couple young stalwarts driving super-charged unglazed vehicles with all doors welded shut.

It is fun to watch the aerial mock combat of male hummingbirds. That was my principal motive in putting out feeders.

I found title of TV series "The Dukes of Hazzard".

Posted By: Keiva Re: Boss Hog - 01/03/02 08:31 PM
It is fun to watch the aerial mock combat of male hummingbirds.
"Mock" combat, dr. bill? Nothing mock about it. Hummingbirds are cutthroats.* see Smithsonian Magazine,
http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues00/sep00/hummingbirds.html:

[Title] So Tiny, So Sweet...So MEAN
[subtitle] If hummingbirds were as big as ravens, it probably wouldn't be safe to go for a walk in the woods
Their size makes them cute — and also dictates their fretful, bickering, high-rev way of life. ... this fearless opportunist is a slave to its raging metabolism.

It's the equivalent of a 180-pound human having to scrounge up 204,300 calories a day, or about 171 pounds of hamburger. ... It's enough to give even a very pretty little bird the personality of a junkyard dog. A scientific paper about the rufous hummingbird includes this endearing notation: "SOCIAL BEHAVIOR: None. Individual survival seems only concern."

-----------------
*ROFL! The good doctor dislikes boars, border collies, and hippos, but loves hummingbirds!
Posted By: Capital Kiwi Down on the Pig Farm - 01/05/02 07:17 AM
Weeeell, I had two uncles who were both pig farmers and I spent far too much time mucking out the barrows when I was knee-high to a grasshopper. Barrow is what pighouses are called in Zild. Mature males were boars. Mature females were gilts until they'd had a couple of litters and were then known as sows. Pigs between about six weeks and a year are the ones usually carted off to bring home the bacon, and they are known as weaners.

Although I must admit that weaner seemed to be a malleable term. It's also used to describe both young boars and sows between a year and two years which aren't going to be bred, at least at my rellies' farms.

[pig story - ignore if you wish!]

One of my uncles had a sow called Maud. She was a champion farrower, tending to have between eight and ten piglets at a time, and was also a good mother. This is not entirely commmon in the farmed pig world, where mum quite often lies down and reduces the household food bill by crushing a number of her offspring to death. Most pig farmers remove the young except for feeding time if they are kept in pens. The problem doesn't tend to be so bad if the pigs have the run of a paddock.

Maud was huge. I don't know what she weighed, but she was bigger than any of the breeding boars on the farm. She was bad-tempered with them, even when she was in heat, and they approached her with great caution when they were trying to do their bit for the propagation of the species. I fondly remember my younger cousin coming rushing in from outside one day yelling "Mum, mum, the boar's trying to murder Maud!". We all piled out to see what was happening, given the improbability of any boar on that farm wanting to fight big mamma. It turned out to be the piggy equivalent of the birds and the bees, with Maud in fine form, trying to bite her swain in half while he was furiously trying to do his duty. We all fell about laughing. We called her the Black Widow for a while, but she was really still just Maud.

Maud was like a pet dog and would follow my uncle around the farm. Being not very big himself, my uncle looked rather incongruous being followed around by this very, very large pig who would nuzzle his backside whenever he stopped, grunting contentedly. She loved being scratched between the ears and on the snout. If you tried to leave her in the paddock with a gate safely between you, she would simply trample part of the fence down to get to where ever she wanted to be. This included my aunt's garden, unfortunately. Maud developed a distinct liking for the flowers of roses, and would walk down the driveway nipping off the blooms and munching them with great relish. Needless to say, my aunt was not a happy camper when it came to Maud.

It all came to a head one night when my aunt and uncle were sitting watching TV. They heard a crash from the front of the house and the sound of breaking glass. Burglary was not unknown in the Fairfield area, so my uncle grabbed something heavy and went to investigate, only to find that Maud had simply lain down on the porch (as was her wont). But this time she'd managed to wedge part of her anatomy against the front door which gave up the ghost under her weighty, if tender, mercies ...

Maud wound up in a specially reinforced pen for the rest of her career. She screamed day and night for a couple of weeks, apparently, until she got used to the new arrangements. Can you imagine the noise?

The term "hog" is simply not used in Zild except in relation to slightly reorganised Harley-Davidson motorcycles.

Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Heeere pig, pig, piggy! - 01/05/02 07:34 AM
He ain't the only one. Wild boar is highly esteemed by many here, inlcuding those of us who would rather let someone else risk their life by trying to end a wild boar's.

Which I did a couple of times years ago when dragged into the bush by friends. I found I didn't get much of a kick out of pig hunting. Too much hard slog through wet bush and bracken to find the damned things. Then, when you'd managed to kill one, you had to cart the beggar back to the road.

I tend think of pighunting in much the same terms as Oscar Wilde regarded foxhunting: "The unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible".

But I'm very partial to wild pig, particularly if it's cooked in a hangi ... [drooling -e]

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Boss Hog - 01/05/02 04:07 PM
Dear Keiva:

That's great stuff you posted there!!!! And what's this rufous? He's not the one who appears in all those jokes, is he?

That hummingbird, fer sure, is a humdinger of in-SPIRE-ation!!!

Bird regards,
WordWarbler

Posted By: wofahulicodoc a _very_ malleable term - 01/05/02 06:30 PM
Pigs between about six weeks and a year are known as weaners...[It] seemed to be a malleable term. It's also used to describe both young boars and sows...

...as well as the meat product sometimes derived from them, cooked over the campfire and served on a bun with mustard and relish? sorry, just couldn't resist that one [cover-head-and-scuttle-hastily-for-cover-ducking-brickbats-and-old-shoes e]

Posted By: wofahulicodoc Wieners - 01/05/02 06:46 PM
[Aside to non-US readers: what USns call a hot dog or frankfurter is attributed by many to an origin not in Germany (Frankfurt) but rather Austria (Vienna, hence "wiener"). Sometimes the same person will use both names indiscriminately, not recognizing the inherent inconsistency. (Or perhaps there's a delicate distinction that the gourmand in me doesn't know about.) ]

Posted By: wwh Re: Wieners - 01/05/02 08:00 PM
Dear Keiva: You mistake me I admire border collies, only deplore their unhappiness when denied a chance to employ their abilities at herding animals. Hummingbirds I have watched for many hours duelling, but very careful never to injure. Ruby seems a better description. My dictionary says "rufous" is rust color, like William the Conqueror was called "Rufus". For a really mean bird, I have seen kingbirds sit on the backs of eagles, plucking out a stream of feathers, to suggest to the eagle not to trespass on the kingbird's territory.

Posted By: Bingley Re: Rufus - 01/08/02 03:21 PM
William Rufus was William II, William the Conqueror's son, who was found dead in the New Forest with an arrow in him in what may or may not have been a hunting accident (I have a vague idea it was deer hunting but it may have been boar hunting).

Bingley
Posted By: wwh Re: Rufus - 01/08/02 03:54 PM
Dear Bingley: my countenance is rufous and I rue my gaffe. Thanks for the correction.

Posted By: stales Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/09/02 12:26 AM
> No farmer I knew would ever say "the hogs" when referring to a group that he knew contained both genders...

Same like cows and cattle....only city folk refer to a bunch of bovines as "cows".

stales

Posted By: of troy Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/09/02 12:46 PM
Stales, that is not quite true... Cows are what we have on the east coast-- Cattle is what they have in Texas.

if you drive from NYC to say Cornell, to say Hi to David and Betsy, what you pass on the way are cows. Up state NY (NYC is downstate) is dairy country. it is udderly clear, that all you see are she cows.

in Texas, the animals you see from your car have horns, (often rather bigs ones) and its not udderly clear which are the she's or he's. if its not clear, they are cattle!

Posted By: RhubarbCommando Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/09/02 01:22 PM
....only city folk refer to a bunch of bovines as "cows".


and in the UK, not only do farmers usually refer to a mixed herd as, " ... a field of cows ..." but one farmer I stayed with in darkest Gloucestershire had the biggest, fiercest Hereford Bull I have ever encountered (or ever wish to!)invariably referred to it as, " ... her ... ", as in, "her be a right bugger to 'andle."


Posted By: wwh Re: Hogm(o)(a)n(e)(a)y - 01/09/02 02:28 PM
Dear RC: I am really surprised to hear of a Hereford bull being vicious. The first Hereford bull I remember seeing had a girl riding on his back, coming in to be fed. I thought she was making a potentially dangerous mistake. My favorite uncle was a dairyman, and he had warned me never to trust a dairy bull, because they may seem docile, but can without any warning becone life threatening. So when the girl dismounted, I asked her if she had not been taking a foolish risk, and she told me Hereford bulls were pussycats, and easily made pets. We subsequently owned a Hereford bull, and he too was a pet.

Posted By: wofahulicodoc Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/09/02 03:44 PM
I'm not sure how wise it is to generalize from an n of 2...

Posted By: wwh Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/09/02 04:08 PM
Dear wofahulicodoc: My kids were in 4H for quite a few years, exhibiting beef animals, mostly steers, of course. But we had contact with quite a few beef breeders, and it seems to be the case that beef bulls just are not dangerous, while dairy bulls are. At least that seems to be the situation in US. So I'm not judging just by two specimens.

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/10/02 12:34 AM
I just conferred with my wise aged father and asked, "What do we call groups of those great bovines in the fields?" He said, "The bulls and the cows; the heifers and the calves." And then I asked, "But what do we call the whole group?" He answered, "The herd."

And that's straight out of the horse's mouth, right here in southern Virginia.

DubDub

Posted By: Angel Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/10/02 12:40 AM
He answered, "The herd."

I've heard that before!

Posted By: stales Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/10/02 02:34 AM
I wish I understood more about parts of speech but I don't so I need help here.....

Surely there's a difference in syntax or something between the collective noun "herd" and the word "cattle". To my uneducated mind, it seems that one could say "a herd of cattle" or "a herd of cows" and be correct both times?????

stales

Posted By: Keiva Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/10/02 08:15 PM
He answered, "The herd."
I've heard that before!
You've heard of cattle? But why a duck?


Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/10/02 10:09 PM
A "herd of cattle" is perfectly acceptable where I come from. Unless there was some doubt about what kind of animal it was, however, you would usually just refer to the "herd". A "herd of cows" is also acceptable if that is, indeed, what they are.

And I dunno what kind of Herefords Bill made the acquaintance of, but a Hereford bull is just as likely to have a go at you as any other I've encountered although Jersey bulls are reputed to be downright deadly.

Here's a funny story, quite true: Years ago I was tramping (read "hiking" you blithering heathens in the US) up the Matukituki Valley near Wanaka. The first part of the tramp is over the top paddocks of Mt Aspiring Station. Stu Aspinall used to keep his Hereford heifers up there during the summer because they're relatively docile creatures and that cuts down on the complaints from frightened townies out for a wander in the mountains.

But they are curious and will follow you to see what you're up to.

We were meandering up the valley in no particular hurry, accompanied by a few heifers who were just along for the walk. They'll follow damned near anything that's moving; they're not renowned for their intelligence. Two heavily-laden girls caught up with us and overtook us. The heifers, obligingly, decided that they liked the girls' pace better than ours, and took off with them.

But the girls were nervous of the cattle despite our assurances that they weren't vicious and began to walk faster. So did the heifers. The last we saw of them, the girls were pretty much jogging along as fast as they could, packs bouncing up and down on their backs and everything loose rattling, with the heifers obligingly keeping pace. They'd have been pretty exhausted by the time they reached the Bluff about five miles further on, which was as far as the cattle could go without fording the river.



Posted By: Angel Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/11/02 02:52 AM
But why a duck?

Ummmmmm....HUH? Is this an old joke or something?

Posted By: Keiva Re: Isn't that rather a lot of duck? - 01/11/02 04:08 AM
Is this an old joke or something?
"Yes, an ancient canard," he reMarx.

Posted By: Angel Re: Isn't that rather a lot of duck? - 01/11/02 04:50 AM
"Yes, an ancient canard," he reMarx.

[GAGgle-e] UGHHHHHHHHHH! "That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever herd!"

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Isn't that rather a lot of duck? - 01/11/02 09:45 AM
Dear Keiva,

Very serious here. Is that why Groucho had the duck? Because of canards?

Best regards,
DaffyDub

Posted By: AnnaStrophic Re: Speaking of hogs... - 01/11/02 12:20 PM
In the US we have hog-callin' contests at state fairs, etc. Where did the common call "Sou-eeee piggy piggy pig" come from?

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Speaking of hogs... - 01/11/02 12:48 PM
Dear AnnaS--

Wonder whether it has anything to do with the sow???

WW

Posted By: Angel Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/11/02 01:18 PM
You've heard of cattle? But why a duck?

In looking for info on the Marx Brothers, and Is that why Groucho had the duck?, I came across this line in their movie "Duck Soup":
"I could dance with you till the cows come home. On second thought, I'd rather dance with the cows when you came home.'

http://www.filmsite.org/duck.html

Are we goin round and round again, now back to cows?

Questioningly,

Angel

Posted By: of troy Re: Speaking of hogs... - 01/11/02 01:23 PM
From Dr. Bill's post up a ways: The genus is Sus scrofa.(italics added)

just as cows are still sometimes called "Bossy" from the latin name, one calls pigs "Sou-eeee piggy piggy pig" from their latin name..

Posted By: Faldage Re: Speaking of hogs... - 01/11/02 02:09 PM
"Bossy" from the latin name, one calls pigs "Sou-eeee piggy piggy pig" from their latin name..

Ya din't know them Southron farm boys was so erudite, didja?

An they all drinks Agri-Cola®

Agri-Cola, thanks a lot,
twelve phalanges on the spot.
Whip them Gauls and head back home,
We just done it for the sake of Rome.

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/11/02 02:12 PM

Are we goin round and round again, now back to cows?

Angel, I think we're a gyre here--one sometimes shot through the center with that arrow of linearity--but lots is the gyre here.

WW



Posted By: wwh Re: Isn't that rather a lot of bull? - 01/11/02 02:46 PM
And who is the principal gyrovague?

Posted By: Keiva Re: gyre - 01/11/02 04:26 PM
’Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
Did gyre and gimble in the wabe;


In our various humble opinions, how is "wabe" pronounced?

Posted By: Wordwind Re: gyre - 01/11/02 04:33 PM
wabe = rhymes with Abe (honest, of course), babe, and I can't think of anymore. Which brings up an interesting philosophical question, but I can't think of it either. Back into the gyre....

GlubGlub

Posted By: tsuwm Re: gyre - 01/11/02 04:39 PM
>an interesting philosophical question, but I can't think of it either.

ah, Fermat's Complaint. :-/

Posted By: wofahulicodoc Re: wabe - 01/11/02 04:49 PM
wabe = rhymes with Abe, babe, and I can't think of anymore

...and outgrabe, of course

See Douglas Hofstadter's lovely presentation of translations into French and German! Are there more languages too?

Posted By: Sparteye Hog terminology - 01/14/02 04:09 PM
I asked my friend the pig farmer for his expertise on our great pig debate, and he says:

My first reaction is on the "high on the hog". I really didn't know (and don't) where it came from and really it doesn't have much to do with the business of raising hogs today. Some of the comments in the string might be as accurate as any. The muscle that is the most valuable is the loin muscle and it is on the top of the hog. Also it could refer to the fact that on the traditional farms of the past, hogs were raised not only for food and lard, but they have traditionally been a profitable part of a diversified farm (a few chickens, a cow or two, maybe a steer, some hogs, and crops) and they were often referred to as the mortgage lifters because they would sell some and make the mortgage payment.

As to the comment about sausage, not everything goes into the sausage, it is just muscle and fat with some seasonings usually put into a casing. Today the casings mostly are man-made, but in history the casings were what was available, which at the time of slaughter, there was always the intestines available which were cleaned and used. A note on this is that we went to a Japanese restaurant in Hawaii, and cow intestines were served as an option on the buffet, so in some areas of the world, they are a delicacy.

The comment about 'everything is used except the squeal' is correct and the person who wrote about that is the only way to make a profit is correct. It is amazing what all of it is used for, but a short list would not only include the meat and hide (some shoes are made from pigskin, it is a soft and flexible leather), but the gelatins are used for the capsule casings on our medicines, the thyroid is used for the manufacture of one of our medicines, the heart valves are used for replacements in humans, - I think you get the idea. It isn't gross, it is just a fact of life that we humans need to take advantage of all that god has offered us to help us survive.

In our area of the United States we use the following terms and definitions. I remind you that they are different elsewhere, just as some areas use the word 'soda', others use 'pop', and still others use the word 'coke'. They all refer to the same thing.

Boars - uncastrated male pig, usually of breeding age but not necessarily (Breeding age is around 7 to 8 months)

Barrow - castrated male pig of any age

Sow - a female pig which has had baby pigs

Gilt - a female pig which hasn't had any baby pigs

Hog vs. Pig we use these terms interchangeably, but I usually think of a hog as older than a pig

By the way, a hog will reach sexual maturity at around 280 to 300 pounds. Most hogs in the United States are marketed between 240 to 300 pounds depending on what the packing plant wants and what the markets are doing (price going up or down). This is usually between 5 1/2 months and 7 months of age.

Boss hog does refer to the television character, but there also is always a social structure in a group or pen of pigs, unless the group is too large. The structure is very much like the gang structure and there is one pig nobody challenges which would be considered the 'boss hog'. If you mix two groups of hogs, they act just like the Palinstines and Israilites, they fight until a new 'boss hog' is found.

It is now illegal to feed slop to pigs. It was very prevalent around cities with a restaurant trade, but it encouraged trichinea so it was made illegal.

I would consider a weaner a pig which is between the age of weaning (depending on the farm it is as early as 2 weeks or as late as 5 weeks) to around the 40 pound weight (8 to 12 weeks). After that it is a feeder pig and then it is a finish hog. A finish hog gets up to the slaughter weight and if kept for breeding it becomes part of the breeding herd which consists of gilts, sows and boars.

While I don't know a lot about the cattle or dairy business, I do know that a bull is the same as a boar, an uncastrated male, a steer the same as a barrow, a heifer the same as a gilt, and a cow is the same as a sow.

About the comments about eating Boar meat, it is usually used in heavily seasoned sausages. That is because it is ground up very finely which eliminates the toughness, and the seasoning covers over the boar odor in the meat. Because of boar odor, we castrate all of the boars at birth which are not going to be used for breeding purposes. If we don't, the plant will dock us on our checks.

Hog Run probably refers to when out west they would herd the hogs from an area to a marketing yard next to the railroads. It would be done across open lands with a large number of hogs as well as farmers herding them. Today when we talk about the hog run, it is how many hogs are delivered (by truck) to the slaughter plants in each area, usually by state or a total on the whole nation. So when you see or hear of the hog run in Iowa today was 110,000, it would mean that 110,000 hogs were delivered to the plants in Iowa today.

Sou-eee was probably a noise or hog call made when feeding hogs in pens outside. This was done on the old traditional farms of 30 years and more ago.


And, I can but add:

[Homer]Mmmmmm. Bacon.[/Homer]



Posted By: wwh Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 04:23 PM
Dear Sparteye: I am mildly surprised you didn't mention that footballs and presumably basketballs are made from pigskin. And sportscaster used to frequently refer to the football as "the pigskin".

Posted By: Faldage Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 05:04 PM
footballs ... are made from pigskin

Right. And violin strings are made of cat intestines.

And the moon...

Wanna buy a bridge?

Posted By: wwh Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 06:52 PM
Dear Faldage: Wanna buy a football made from alligator hide?

Posted By: Keiva Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 06:56 PM
Hog Run probably refers to when out west they would herd the hogs from an area to a marketing yard next to the railroads.

Hogs are a difficult animal to "run". They have short legs: mean that when walked any great distance, they lose a relatively high percent of their (marketable) body weight. They are not docile: some are so ornery that their eyes would be sewed shut for the run, lest they bolt and lead other hogs after them.

Because hog runs were difficult, hog were often slaughtered near where they were raised. They would be carried log-distance to martket as preserved pork (usually salt pork), not as a live pig. End-consumers thus became used to buying pork that had been slaughtered long previously, and so, when railroad technology became available for long distance transport, such "dressed" pork did not face market resistance.

Beef marketing, however, was quite different. Since cattle can more practically be walked long distances, it was typically delivered to the ultimate market "on the hoof". Even in a city far from the cattle's range, the retail buyer got beef which had been slaughtered only days before.

When railroads came, it became more economic to ship beef after slaughter rather than as part of a live cow. (Why pay to ship the non-meat parts of the cow, which total about half of a cow's weight?) But it took great marketing effort to overcome customer distaste for "non-fresh beef". There were also major battles over freight rates as the eastern beef industry, to protect its business, lobbied hard to have a high shipping charge-per-pound set for dressed beef coming in from the west.
Posted By: wwh Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 07:48 PM
Dear Keiva: I wonder in what year adequate refrigeration became available to ship meat from Texas to point of sale?


Posted By: Wordwind Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 09:54 PM
Just for the record, footballs are made from pigskin, aren't they? Or are there other skins from which they are made, not that I care a lick about football, but just for the record...

DubDub

Posted By: Wordwind Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 10:02 PM
And I know about violin strings not being made from catgut, the gut of cats, that is.

But I've bought several bridges--violin and viola ones, that is. A tangential thought here--why not?--if you look at that bridge, you'll see a man in it with a heart in his center--kind of like those little cartooney-people-fencers tsuwm, if you're reading this, I'm sure you really like the phrase "cartooney-people-fencers" who have hearts on their fencing costumes, whatever you call a fencing costume. What's the word here? But the man, though he has a body and a heart in the string bridge, doesn't have a head. There's a world of meaning in that if you really think about it and music and emotion and all that jazz. (And a bass bridge is a sight to behold!! Wonder how much a high quality bass bridge could cost you? A high quality violin bridge can run $75.00, for the record.)

Best regards,
DubDub

Posted By: Max Quordlepleen . - 01/14/02 10:06 PM
Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 10:33 PM
about a ship called Dunedin

It was a huge commercial risk at the time. The Otago company which funded it couldn't get an insurer for the cargo, since the refrigeration technology was literally in its infancy and no one apart from the backers (and maybe not even them) believed that it would succeed. Most people were convinced that the ship would arrive in London with a hold full of stinking semi-liquid detritus.

But they went ahead anyway, and it was a success. And that set the scene for nearly 80 years of uninterrupted export of whole carcases, nearly all sheep and frozen solid, to Britain. The entire NZ economy came to revolve around them thar dead sheep, to our national detriment in the long run.

Then, of course, Britain joined the ECC. Woe, woe!

I still have a picture of the Dunedin on my wall, in full sail, with a smokestack belching fumes from the boiler which drove the refrigeration engine befouling the entire ship ...



Posted By: wwh Re: Hog terminology - 01/14/02 11:15 PM
At one time pigskin was the preferred leather used. My dictionary gives "football" as the third definition under "pigskin". I don't know what regulations now call for. Perhaps cowhide is now used. But I have a hunch the pebbled surface of pigskin might still make it desirable, as easier to hold onto.

Posted By: consuelo one more little piggy - 01/14/02 11:49 PM
I had this one rooting around in the back of my mind. No one brought it up so I looked it up in my trusty Merriam-Webster. Yup. I wasn't imagining it.

shoat n. [ME shote; akin to Flem schote shoat]
(15c): a young hog usu. less than one year old.

Posted By: wwh Re: one more little piggy - 01/15/02 01:11 AM
To compensate for my envy at your remembering a word I should have remembered, I must ask you what you have in the back of your mind on which a shoat would root? Incidentally, I have wondered how much help pigs must have been to the early settlers. I made a garden out of what had been a grove of small oaks, but could not plow it until I had penned the pigs in the area for a summer. They ripped out stumps that had defeated the plow, and exposed rocks so I could put chain on them.

Posted By: consuelo Re: one more little piggy - 01/15/02 01:20 AM
Why, truffles, of course!

Posted By: Jackie Re: Hog terminology - 01/15/02 02:49 AM
I still have a picture of the Dunedin on my wall, in full sail
Wow, that's really cool (double meaning intended). Thanks for sharing, you-all.

Now--can you remember the name of the first submarine? <eg>

Posted By: wwh Re: Hog terminology - 01/15/02 03:33 AM
Are you thinking of the CSS Hunley?

Posted By: Faldage Re: pigskin submarines - 01/15/02 10:59 AM
"football" as the third definition under "pigskin". I don't know what regulations now call for.

Well, Cecil says they never *were made of pigskin. It was a pig bladder. They switched to rubber years ago. It's probably some synthetic any more.

the name of the first submarine Would that be the Turtle?

http://www.bowfin.org/ftp/subsci/ppt_html/turtle/sld002.htm

http://www.mayflowerfamilies.com/a_1776_submarine.htm

CSS Hunley, indeed!

Posted By: Faldage Re: Cecil - 01/15/02 11:05 AM
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_121.html

Posted By: Jackie Re: pigskin submarines - 01/15/02 12:22 PM
Yes, I was thinking of the Hunley. I had not heard of the Turtle. Thank you, Faldage. One of these days, I'll have to check back and see whether I am mis-remembering what Clive Cussler said, or if he mis-stated the facts. Still can't believe that's his real name...

Posted By: wwh Re: one more little piggy - 01/15/02 03:08 PM
Hey, Faldage, now tell us why WWI German submarines were called pigboats.

Posted By: Faldage Re: pigboats - 01/15/02 03:32 PM
German, Schmerman, Dr. Bill.

Onliest thang I could find was this:

http://www.battlebelow.com/glossary.htm#P
which says it's a WWII term for (particularly) S class boats. And gives a reason for the term.

This is post #99 in this thread. All further postings should go to a new thread.

Posted By: Capital Kiwi Re: one more little piggy - 01/15/02 03:41 PM
And ths little piggy goes ....

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