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Posted By: Marigold Q. about a Phrase! - 08/07/01 04:15 AM
Hi, Wordsmithies! I am so excited to be a part of this little corner of life. This is my first post, so am all aquiver! My question is as follows. Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "Grapes of Wrath"? Thanks! I have to try one of these faces now...

Posted By: Geoff Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/07/01 05:10 AM
Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "Grapes of Wrath"?

The Battle Hymn of The Republic, Steinbeck, and the 14th chapter of Revelation. Past that, I dunno. However, there are lots of car wrecks out here in the wine country of Oregon, soooo.....

Posted By: wordcrazy Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/07/01 12:27 PM
Marigold
The color is intentional.
Welcome, from one "quite new" also.
You show a lot of promise.
I am at work right now, not goofing off (?) but accidentally(?) came early so has time for this greeting. I will await answers to your query. I know you will get satisfaction.

Posted By: wwh Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/07/01 12:59 PM
Hi Geoff! Long time no see! With your clue as to Revelations 14, I looked it up.

8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city,
because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without
mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone
in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


Posted By: Geoff Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/08/01 01:26 AM
And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth,
and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.


You got it, Dr. Bill! As far as I know, them's the original grapes of wrath. Anybody know better?

BTW, Marigold, what made you ask the question? You've piqued my interest!

Posted By: Marigold Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/08/01 03:49 AM
Hi! It was rather timely....I had just registered for AWAD so that I could peruse the bulletin board, when a co-worker asked me that question. Since I didn't know the answer, I told him I knew the perfect place to ask! Thanks for the answers! I knew I could count on you-all!

Posted By: wow Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/09/01 08:26 PM
Welcome Marigold, and do put your inquisitive co-worker onto us, too ...we have plenty of room for people like you and your chum i.e. people with inquiring minds

Posted By: Keiva Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/11/01 10:20 PM
What an interesting question. Thank you, Marigold.

I'm unclear what the metaphor "grapes of wrath" means, in the Battle Hymn line, "the Lord/He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored." Are grapes stored in a "vintage" and are they "trampled" there?

The bible doesn't seem to use the phrase "grapes of wrath". WWH noted a bible metaphor that makes much more sense (winepress of the wrath of God), were divine wrath is the active force (winepress), not passive (trampled grapes).

Could "grapes of wrath" be a mixed metaphor that Howe originated when she wrote her Civil War Hymn? Clues:
--- Isaiah 5:1-7 (shortened) "My wellbeloved hath a vineyard and planted it with the choicest vine, and yet it brought forth wild grapes. Judge I pray you betwixt me and my vineyard. What could have been done more, that I have not done in it, that it should bring forth wild grapes? I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will lay it to waste. The vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel, and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry."
--- Per a Lincoln biographer: A contemporary battle hymn begins with Isaiah 64:4, and then mirrors the vineyard image: "tread down God's grapes, till blood / Unto your horses' bridles hath out the winepress flowed! The day of vengeance dawns, the day of wrath of God. His soul is marching on."
--- Same biographer: while Howe watched soldiers marching by and singing, her companion suggested she write better words to the same marching tune. "When she woke at dawn the next morning lines and stanzas came to her as she lay in bed half dreaming that she was the voice of the nation. She sprang from the bed and wrote in a dim grey twilight, not daring to light the lamp, as it would wake her baby sleeping in its crib."

Posted By: francais31415 Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/22/01 11:50 PM
her companion suggested she write better words to the same marching tune

I wonder what the original lyrics were?

Posted By: Keiva Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/23/01 01:19 AM
better words to the same marching tune
I wonder what the original lyrics were?


John Brown's body lies a'moldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a'moldering in the grave,
John Brown's body lies a'moldering in the grave,
But his truth goes marching on!


Ugh. If memory serves, John Brown was a hero/martyr of the Abolishists -- and a kook of the first order.

I'm not sure if the tune originated there, though. In the movie versions of the Scopes Monkey Trial (Inherit the Wind?), the crowd of torch-carrying rednecks sings the same tune, with different words.

Anyone know where the tune started?

Posted By: wwh - 08/23/01 01:28 AM
Posted By: doc_comfort Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/23/01 01:37 AM
Is anyone else singing...

"He jumped without a parachute from 40,000 feet"?

Posted By: Faldage - 08/23/01 12:09 PM
You crafty dog, you, Dr. Bill.

Posted By: wwh Re: - 08/23/01 12:54 PM
Crafty hell. I had what would have been a good post screwed up by neonatal nuttiness of new system. It kept telling me "we cannot proceed because not all fields are filled in" when there were no unfilled in fields.

Posted By: TEd Remington The Grapes of Wrath - 08/24/01 01:48 PM
> "He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored."

I remember as a very young kid asking my father the origin of this phrase. His answer was along these lines:

During the Civil War the North perceived the South as traitors to the Union. They believed that God was on their side in the struggle, hence the literal translation of this phrase is that God is stomping on "a group or collection of persons or things with certain characteristics in common" (one definition of vintage) which held in its bosom a large store of wrath against the United States.

Posted By: francais31415 Re: original lyrics - 08/27/01 08:20 PM
John Brown's body lies a'moldering in the grave,


...which brings us back to the "construction" thread!

Posted By: WhitmanO'Neill Re: original lyrics - 08/27/01 08:54 PM
We just keep a-weavin' 'n' a-threadin' things together, don't we?

Posted By: wwh Re: original lyrics - 08/27/01 09:07 PM
And I'm a-understanding the construction better now.

Posted By: wwh Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/27/01 09:11 PM
Is anyone else singing...

"He jumped without a parachute from 40,000 feet"?

No, but my brother was aboard an Experimental Engineering plane in WWII with a medical officer who was such a five letterman that nobody could tell him a thing, not even that his oxygen apparatus was hooked up wrong. He jumped from 40,000 feet. His parachute never opened.

Posted By: Bingley Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/28/01 04:55 AM
> a five letterman

From context I assume it means a know-it-all, but the expression is new to me. Care to elucidate on meaning, origin, and other points of interest, anyone?

Bingley
Posted By: wwh Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 08/28/01 11:50 AM
He was a very senior flight surgeon, with a monumental ego. a real p*r*i*c*k. Enough so that half a dozen engineers who knew he was going to die preferred to remain silent.


Posted By: Jackie Five letters = death - 08/28/01 12:06 PM
so that half a dozen engineers who knew he was going to die preferred to remain silent.
You're serious, aren't you? This is unimaginable to me, though I know that there were at least rumors of similar things in Vietnam.
I am getting the distinct impression that you have experienced the world as a cruel and bitter place--please correct me if I'm wrong. This is vastly different than the world I have been privileged to be in--enough so that I nearly lost my dinner, reading about certain bodily fluids.
I would like you to know that there is love---love with no strings or tricks attached--available. I hope that I am not the only one to have offered it to you.






Posted By: consuelo A Five Letter Man - 08/28/01 07:57 PM
Would that be someone who lettered in football, basketball, softball, track & field, and debate? A real good team player?

Posted By: wwh Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/28/01 09:01 PM
I suspect it was coined by a nerd who had no love for jocks.

Posted By: Jazzoctopus Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/28/01 09:28 PM
I thought that it was maybe a sarcastic term for someone who letters in a sport five years in a row.

I recall the line from Forrest Gump that went something like "They thought I played so good, they let me stay and play for a fifth year." Speaking of Alabama State, I think.

Posted By: Marianna Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/29/01 07:40 AM
Jazz thought that it was maybe a sarcastic term for someone who letters in a sport five years in a row.

I have no idea what "lettering in a sport" is... can anyone explain?


Posted By: Jazzoctopus Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/29/01 12:19 PM
Lettering refers to receiving a Varsity letter, usually some type of cloth emblem that can be sewn onto a Letterman's jacket. The letters are usually the first letter of the school name and it denotes what sport the letter was given in. In order to get one you have to fulfill certain requirements during the season, like participating in the sport on the Varsity (as opposed to Junior Varsity) team.

Posted By: tsuwm Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/29/01 01:31 PM
...and getting five of them would indicate that you weren't able to graduate in the normative four years (although eligibility rules would usually prevent such participation anyway). thus a five letter man could be construed as being just a few bricks short of a load.
-ron

Posted By: Faldage Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/29/01 02:01 PM
getting five of them would indicate that you weren't able to graduate in the normative four years

Is this an outside joke?

Posted By: Anonymous Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/29/01 02:10 PM
ohmyGosh... unless i'm misunderstanding your line of thinking (gee, that'd be a big surprise), i think you're right! the joke would be funny only to those who don't realize that most of us take 5+ years to complete our "four year" undergraduate programs.

good eye, faldage =)

Posted By: Faldage Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/29/01 02:24 PM
most of us take 5+ years to complete our "four year" undergraduate programs.

Well, more like I always thought that a letter was for something more than just participating; rather participating with a certain degree of outstanditude and could be earned in more than one sport. Someone who excelled in baseball, football and basketball in junior and senior years could easily be a six letter man.

ron's baby brother, ernest obvious

PS

misunderstanding your line of thinking (gee, that'd be a big surprise)

Hey! Sometimes *I don't understand me.

Posted By: maverick Re: A Five Letter Man - 08/29/01 03:09 PM
Hey! Sometimes *I don't understand me.

Is that an outside joke?

Posted By: Faldage Re: Fool, understand thyself. - 08/29/01 03:12 PM
Hey! Sometimes *I don't understand me.

Is that an outside joke?


Dunno, do you understand me?

Posted By: maverick Re: Fool, understand thyself. - 08/29/01 03:37 PM
yeahbut. dat means nuffin'

just 6 more to go, ole feller!

Posted By: Keiva Re: A Three Letter Man - 08/29/01 03:46 PM
and getting five of them would indicate that you weren't able to graduate in the normative four years

Maybe not. Calling someone a "three letter man" is a high compliment, meaning he is a so good a college athlete as to letter in three separate seasonal sports: a fall sport, a winter sport, and a spring sport.

Is the term five letter man is use? I can't recall it, but am unsure.

Posted By: Faldage Re: Fool, understand thyself. - 08/29/01 04:01 PM
Dunno, do you understand me?

yeahbut. dat means nuffin'

You've got a point there.

Posted By: wow Re: Letter Man Outstanditude !! - 08/29/01 05:20 PM
participating with a certain degree of outstanditude

On ma'Gawd - outstanditude? Faldage strikes again. Great word.
My understanding was that you got a "letter" in each sport in which you played with a Varsty team and that therefore, as said previously, you could easily get six letters in four years by participation in different seasonal sports.
How-sum-ever I do believe that the term, as used for the man in question "Six Letter Man" is perjorative in the sense that a six-letter man would be a "bit above you all" perhaps a "know-it-all" and not one to let the opportunity pass to let you know he knows it all ... a real pain in the asterisk.

Posted By: wow Re: Letter Man is thy name Dave ? - 08/29/01 05:24 PM
All this talk of Letter Man gives one a new scope for thought about Dave Letterman -- the late night talk show host. Sometimes "Six Letter Man" is right on the money in describing Dave, other times he can appear quite charming.

Posted By: francais31415 Re: outside joke - 09/05/01 08:15 PM
Caradea, thanks for your explanation! I think that could be an outside joke, since I didn't realize that taking 5 years to graduate was NOT a sign of poor grades! This has my vote for an outside joke!

Posted By: TEd Remington five-letter man - 09/06/01 12:52 AM
Bill:

I think you answered your own question. I learned MANY years ago that a five letter man was a p*r*i*c*k. So I didn't pay too much attention to this thread after you posted that. I should have!

TEd

Posted By: Bingley Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 09/10/01 05:52 AM
Steinbeck's "The Grapes of Wrath" may (or may not) have been translated into Japanese as "Angry Raisins".

http://www.snopes.com/language/misxlate/raisins.htm


Bingley
Posted By: Alex Williams Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 09/10/01 04:07 PM
In reply to:

This is unimaginable to me, though I know that there were at least rumors of similar things in Vietnam.


Jackie, in Viet Nam they coined a term for killing an officer who was either incompetent or otherwise undesirable, to frag a lieutenant. I am pretty sure that it comes from fragmentation grenade. While the officer was sitting in the latrine someone would toss a hand grenade in and the helpless man would be blown up. Not nice.



Posted By: maverick Re: Q. about a Phrase! - 09/10/01 04:40 PM
not nice

But also infrequent. Which led to its other name: just

a flash in the pan



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