In a recent conversation tried to recall the 7 Deadly Sins ( almost as difficult as naming all 7 Dwarves )One of them is Envy, which prompted further discourse on the difference/similarity of Envy/Jealousy. I remember an old Russian folk tale that astutely differentiated the two emotions. Although I always leaned towards the thought that Envy was material and Jealousy more towards the intangible.Any thoughts?

I would agree as far as connotation, that envy was material, jealousy more towards the intangible. The dictionary hounds may answer for the denotation.

You've got something I want: I envy you.
I've got something you want: I am jealous of it.

"I am jealous of you" seems to mix the two, and I now try to say envious in this case.

If I'm jealous of you, I want to possess the thing (or person) you possess, whereas if I'm envious of you, I want to be in your (possessive) position, to be, as it were, like you.

The focus of jealousy is thus the object of my lust or avarice (to mention another couple of DSs), while the focus of envy is you, my rival.

Does this mean that jealousy is an objective sin, while envy is a subjective sin?

It does raise the question as to why "Jealousy" isn't a deadly sin?
Envy has so much in common with othe DS's, such as Gluttony, Lust and, especially, Covetousness that one feels that jealousy could quite well have been fitted in - make it up to the Nine Deadly Sins, why not?
If we were to do that, what would be the Ninth?

(The others are Pride, Anger and Sloth, to save you-all having to LIU - please don't ask how it is I know them all so well!)

Given current context, how about verbosity?

If we were to do that, what would be the Ninth?

How about apathy? certainly it would not be mutually exclusive from sloth, but there's a whole realm of apathy... particularly for those peoples and places which don't directly affect our cushy lives for whom most of us don't give a ton of thought, let alone share our resources.

I always thought of jealousy as a transient emotion which may be overcome by rational thought ... whereas Envy eats away body and soul and may lead one to perpetrate irreversible actions.

RhubarbCommando>>>>
It does raise the question as to why "Jealousy" isn't a deadly sin?

If there is a doctor in the house, please help us clarify this. I thought that serious jealousy is a people to people phenomenon and sometimes can be serious enough to need medical attention. I think, envy, sloth, Pride, anger, you can talk rationality into it but not jealousy. I thought that crimes of passion are mostly caused by jealousy.
Sorry to be so grim. Please correct me if I am wrong.

chronist

It does raise the question as to why "Jealousy" isn't a deadly sin?

I wonder if it is because jealousy has a positive side. One can be, and indeed should be, jealous of one's own good name, but never envious of another's.

MaxQ, P.B., B.L.

Jump in anytime, Father Steve!

I wanted to start this discussion long ago, thanks for bringing it into play.

I'll challenge *anyone to come up with a situation where pride is "looked down" upon in this society of so called puritans (at least conservatives). Commercial marketing attacks these *seven "sins" with a bellows designed to flame them into the towering inferno's they've become.

Where would pride be without envy?
Where would sloth be without gluttony?
Where would avarice be without greed?

Lust stands alone as the one that is truly not a sin.

Musick writes Lust stands alone as the one that is truly not a sin.

I refuse categorically to be drawn into a discussion of that statement!

Really feeling your oats, today, ain'cha' Birthday Boy?

Anything I say *today can and will categorically be equated with some preconceived mindset others think I should have... sounds like envy to me...

I'll challenge *anyone to come up with a situation where pride is "looked down" upon in this society of so called puritans


I don't know about providing a specific situation, but, for me, pride is like jealousy - the sin is in the degree. If either becomes inordinate, that is a sin. Envy, on t'other hand seems to me to be the mark of mean-spiritdness, and ought to be considered a sin whenever it is manifested.

Envy, on t'other hand seems to me to be the mark of mean-spiritdness, and ought to be considered a sin whenever it is manifested.

is envy, by definition, necessarily the desire to *take* something from another? atomica defines it as "A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another."

i guess it's difficult for me to distinguish between envy and admiration. i can admire something--a beautiful jewel, for example--without wishing for it myself (i don't care much for jewelry). however, i often find myself envying someone's talents, wisdom, experience, self-control (), etc., in the sense that i set those attributes as goals for myself. my envy certainly doesn't include a wish that those whose traits or possessions i admire would themselves lose them. is this form of envy still a sin? is there a better word for what i think of as envy?

in the sense that i set those attributes as goals for myself. my envy certainly doesn't include a wish that those whose traits or possessions i admire would themselves lose them. is this form of envy still a sin?


Is that really envy? To me, the sentiment you describe does not mock the meat it feeds on, and yes, I know that Willie used jealousy there. Like you, I use the word envy in a similar way, but if I were to be more precise, I would say that "I admire your x, and I wish that I had similar x", instead of "I envy you your x."

Re: envy, by definition, necessarily the desire to *take* something from another? atomica defines it as "A feeling of discontent and resentment aroused by and in conjunction with desire for the possessions or qualities of another."

I think the bolded words make the difference-- I could look at someone (and I have) and envy something they have (most notable intangable skills--) and let it eat at me-- cause me to discontent and resentment--

or I could look as some one, and desire something they have-- and use it as spur to improve myself--(as I have learned to do)

I see the first as a sin-- (and don't we all know people, who no matter what they have, are always crying "unfair, I don't have it. why can't I have it, too?"

To combat envy-- i try to emulate those i envy-- To recognize-- I don't have to resent or be discontented.. I can, if i want, be as poised, or as what ever..

To envy is, to some degree, to negate ones self-- an act of self destruction.. If I envy someones beautiful (singing) voice.. It doesn't help me sing any better-- and keeps me from being the best i can be.. (I am the perfect example of how bad a person can sing-- but I sing non the less-- I enjoy the sound of my voice-- even if no one else does!)

(I am the perfect example of how bad a person can sing-- but I sing non the less-- I enjoy the sound of my voice-- even if no one else does!)


Sorry, helen, but I must object. I jealously guard the right to call myself "the perfect example of how bad a person can sing"

Nicholas, succinct and to the point....I like it!
And here is the Russian folk tale ( a bit apropos for one named after a Czar) : There were two farmers in the Ukraine. Ivan had fallen on hard times and lost all his sheep, while Peter still had a flock of twelve. One night an angel appeared to Ivan to grant him one wish. He thought long and hard about Peter's sheep. He could either wish for 12 sheep like Peter possessed (jealousy) or he could choose to have Peter's sheep disappear forever (envy). So, this is how I prefer to interpret the difference...one is pure desire of another's possession, the other, so intense, as to desire the other's misfortune.

I see the first as a sin-- (and don't we all know people, who no matter what they have, are always crying "unfair, I don't have it. why can't I have it, too?"
You make a fair point, dear Helen!
I'd modify it somewhat ... envy is when someone says "unfair, I don't have it. You should give me yours."

Guess I agree with the sheepherder parable.

On a quick Google :
http:// http://deadlysins.com/sins.htm

http:// http://deadlysins.com/virtues.htm

A Google of Seven Deadly Sins brought up a bunch of sites. The above are just the ones in the top selection.

Envy and jealousy are frequently used as synonyms in conversational English. They are, in some usages, remarkably close in meaning, but distinguishable.

Jealous derives from zealous, which derives from the Late Latin "zelus" which arrived on England's shores via the Old French "gelos" and became the Middle English "jelous."

The connection between jealousy and zeal is most apparent in the Greek zeloo and zeleuo and zelos are variously translated as either "zealous" or "jealous." These terms are used in both positive and negative senses, e.g. sometimes it is a good thing to be zealous for God or for justice or for peace but a bad thing to harbour feelings of jealousy. The Authorized (or King James) Version of the Bible makes this difficult in that it sometimes describes God as jealous -- that is, filled with zeal for His people.

Envy derives from the Latin invidia which, via the Old French, became "envie" in Middle English.

Too many distinctions without support are offered in too many authoritative prescriptive sources. An attempt to follow them all would lead on to eschew the use of either word ever.

By far the simplest and best explanation I can offer treats these terms as moral categories [so what did you expect from somebody who teaches ethics and moral theology?].

I would suggest that jealousy is about what is mine and envy is about what is yours.

To be jealous is to fear that you have designs on my possessions, or on things that I fancy as rightfully mine, or that are now in your possession but were formerly mine, or that I thought ought to be mine.

To envy you is to experience resentment and discontent arising from your achievements, advantages or possessions. Some wag once said that "envy is the art of counting the other fellow's blessings."

For more than you ever wanted to know about the distinction, see Saint Cyprian at http://listserv.american.edu/catholic/church/fathers/cyprian/cyp-jeal.txt

I would suggest that jealousy is about what is mine and envy is about what is yours.

Well put, Father Steve!

Thank you, Father Steve.
Delighted you are back!

Amen

So, can Gatsby be given due credit for the resurrection of Father Steve?

Gatsby inquires: "Can Gatsby be given due credit for the resurrection of Father Steve?"

And the Vicar himself responds: "No, both wow and Jackie sent me e-mail saying that my presence was required on the board and I can deny neither of them anything."

Sorry to have been away more than present. Both of my jobs are taxing, at present, and my love life, while not properly "taxing" is paying great dividends as our wedding day grows nearer. I've also been on the road teaching a bit here and there; more of that coming up in the next two months. [Insert "sigh" emoticon here.]

The Old Padre

Father Steve says : "our wedding day grows nearer"

Felicitations, Padre!

Mayhap you will post a photo of the Bride and Bridegroom on Max's idrive ?

Meanwhile : deeeeep breaths.

Father Steve says Both of my jobs are taxing, at present

Does that mean you work as a mole for the IRS in both the judiciary and the church? Hey, things are really looking up!

I hope all goes well on your wedding day and that you have as much fun on yours as I did on mine. If Washington wasn't so far off the track I intend to beat across the States, I'd come up there and throw rice at you!

Is it just me, or does it strike anyone else as...ironic... that our man of the cloth would announce his nuptials on a thread called "Deadly Sin" under "jealousy and envy"?

Welcome back, Fr. Steve: Wishing you every happiness on your upcoming wedding!

[/quote]Is it just me, or does it strike anyone else as...ironic... that our man of the cloth would announce his nuptials[/quote]

Perhaps, but we'll know for sure if it rains on his wedding day.

we'll know for sure if it rains on his wedding day
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Now, wouldn't that be wonderful! In many cultures, especially Native Hawaiian, rain is very lucky. And should it be woindy...well winds come for the Royalty (ali'i.)

I'm not sure about in English, but in German envy and jealousy are very distinct. Envy, or Neid, is only for material things, whereas jealousy, or Eifersucht, is only used in referring to people. German is a rather strict language and I tend to think that in English the two words are quite a bit more interchangeable!

squid,
Ich kann verstehen! What a twist on my inquiry. Of course, other languages would possibly be more precise. Shameful that I never explored that aspect. Danke, mit Besten Grussen (sorry no umlauts on this keyboard)!