My 15 year old asked me why "nonetheless" means what it does. It sounded like a simple enough question so I dove right in only to get hopelessly tangled. "None" of what? "Less" than or of what? Why didn't he ask me about ne'er do well? That one's easy. Help!

Hello Janis,

Not being able to give you the solution of this little problem, nevertheless I aswer you because nonetheless gave me a good laugh.
When I translated this word to Dutch I noticed we have for this:
'desalniettemin '. Which is at the same level of inexplicable as
nonetheless.

huh. this word (meaning nevertheless or notwithstanding) has been around forever (or since ÆLFRIC, whichever came first).

earlier forms: natheless, nautheless, netheless; with many OE and ME forms featuring Þ and ð and æ -- none of this, nonetheless, explains why it means what it does.

-joe (it is what it is) friday

by the by, here's an example where the Online Etymology Dictionary is totally hosed, "1847, as phrase none the less; contracted into one word from c.1930"

it's clear they[he] took this directly from OED2:

1847 DICKENS Dombey (1848) xlii. 419, I thank you none the less. 1875 RUSKIN Fors Clav. lv, The children none the less knew their love. 1924 G. B. SHAW St. Joan v. 66 But you will be none the less alone: they cannot save you. 1930 Principal's Rep., Armstrong College (Newcastle) 1929-30 4 The elevation of Sir William Noble..to the peerage..has been a matter of pride and pleasure..which nonetheless has been qualified subsequently. 1955 Times 13 July 7/5 Later than Nabucco.., it is, nonetheless, not such a good opera. 1972 Nature 8 Dec. 327/1 Although some research fields seem to grow from a single, germinal experiment, others take root in accidents set off by workers stumbling from one preserve to another{em}and are none-the-less interesting for that.

but they[he] needs to keep up with OED[online]:

1533 Aberdeen Burgh Rec. in A. J. Mill Mediaeval Plays in Scotl. (1927) 144 Nontheles he was {ygh}eit reddy to except the said office gif the toune [etc.]. 1620 tr. G. Boccaccio Decameron III. X, None the less he would do all that in him lay. 1821 N. Amer. Rev. July 58 Education is not a subject of national legislation, but it is none the less a national concern. 1847 DICKENS Dombey & Son (1848) xlii. 419, I thank you none the less. 1875 J. RUSKIN Fors Clavigera lv, The children none the less knew their love. 1915 C. P. S. GILMAN Herland xi, He said that they could of course kill him,..but that he despised them nonetheless. 1955 Times 13 July 7/5 Later than Nabucco.., it is, nonetheless, not such a good opera. 1988 M. SPARK Far Cry from Kensington vi. 29 Anne Clough, whose father, though completely crazy, had nonetheless been hanged.

-joe (that was a bit of fun) friday

It's a weird thing. Written none the less or 'nonetheless' it makes no sense yet we all use it and it has a function.
Want to add how evenly senseless is 'desalniettemin'.
This is a glued together word like we glue together as much as we can: des = of, al = already, niet = not, te = too = min = less.
So: of-already-not-too-less. Yet desalniettemin is used as often as nonetheless.

Nonetheless, 'nonetheless' notwithstanding, 'nevertheless' is none the less useful also.

Somehow I see a sense behind it but I can't quite get a handle on what it is.

Thinking imperfectly, I'm thinking along the lines that what has been said before nonetheless lessens what is to be said thereafter none at all.

As in Dutch, it also exists in German: niedestoweniger (nevertheless). Just to add some info. Doesn't help me figure it out...

well. take a look at Dickens' usage. it's pretty clear what he means and why it means that. don't you think?!

-joe (dumb guy, no son) friday

Spanish is also useless in this regard. "No obstante" is the phrase, which is kind of "without obstruction", or "sin embargo", literally "without seizure".

If you break it down into an example, it makes it a tiny bit clearer:
"The children saw the bull in the field, but went in nonetheless"

The children saw the bull (danger) in the field, but went in not [none][the] less eager/brave/willing (or whatever).

Since "nonetheless" is incomplete (less what?), there is an inference needing to be made (other than that they are stupid...) :0)

Nice lesson.

"I cannot accept your offer, but I thank you none the less,"
so means: I cannot not accept your offer, but I thank you not less for it?"

Where we would sooner say : "thanks anyway." (?)

In English nonetheless is less a mess then than in Dutch and German. (can't do the equal thing with it)

"I cannot accept your offer, but I thank you none the less,"
so means: I cannot not accept your offer, but I thank you not less for it?"

and, perhaps, I think nothing less of you for making it.

No, I think it means "I am none the less grateful", ("not less grateful") even though I didn't accept the offer. At least, that's how I see it! :0)

"I cannot accept your offer, but I thank you none the less,"
so means: I cannot not accept your offer, but I thank you not less for it?"

on first reading, I missed that second 'not' -- if you meant to put it, that's not correct; if you didn't mean to put it, that's still not correct.

on first reading, I missed that second 'not' -- if you meant to put it, that's not correct; if you didn't mean to put it, that's still not correct.

I looked to the third 'not' and was stymied because I hadn't seen the second either.

Nevertheless, notwithstanding, still, however, yet, are some alternate adverbs that could make the statement nonetheless emphatic.

In the the sentence "I cannot accept your offer, but I thank you none the less," it simply means I thank you despite the fact that I don't want what you're offering. I thank you anyway. I thank you even though I don't need to thank you. It's just an idiom. Idioms don't need to analysed in detail to try to make sense of them. They don't make sense. That's what makes them idiomatic.

Equivocal language. When olly uses nonetheless in "adverbs that could make the statement nonetheless emphatic," he should have used "none the less" since that's not what 'nonetheless' means. He meant not less than using 'nonetheless.' But 'nonetheless' as one word does not mean not less than. Its meaning transcends its etymology. It means 'anyway.'

Yes, However, if you look at Bransheas last post, tsuwm was quoting the perhaps unintentional addition of an extra word (not). kind of like in the beginning of your post.



Yeah, that was partly my point. To expose the etymology. You just explained it better.

So Janis, Don't know if this is helping but we're having fun .

I wonder who started this business about an extra (k)not. I mean

The not was put there on purpose. What would:
"I cannot accept your offer, but I thank you less for it ", look like? Not only very incorrect but also rude.

Can one not say : I thank you not less for this? (not even poetically somehow ?) Hmm? Shakespeare or such?

Ok, lemme think a minute; trying to rephrase tsuwm's Dickens ref. I believe "nonetheless" refers to whatever the speaker meant (an action, a feeling, etc.) going on at none the less strength despite the situation being less optimal than what might be desired.
Does that help, or is it wrong/unclear? Faldage--is this something of the sense you sensed?

Sounds sensible.

Sorry, Anna, to pick a nit: nichtsdestoweniger is the correct word. It does share a lack of logic with nonetheless
The corresponding term in French is néanmoins - probably just as obscure.

Of course, Dr Weissbier. I was thinking of "nevertheless," which also shares the same lack of logic! (nice to see you, btw)

The defintion that makes the most sense to me is:
http://onlinedictionary.datasegment.com/word/nevertheless
nevertheless - WordNet (r) 2.1 (2005) :

nevertheless
adv 1: despite anything to the contrary (usually following a
concession); "although I'm a little afraid, however I'd
like to try it"; "while we disliked each other,
nevertheless we agreed"; "he was a stern yet fair
master"; "granted that it is dangerous, all the same I
still want to go" [syn: however, nevertheless,
withal, still, yet, all the same, even so,
nonetheless, notwithstanding]

The [/concession] aspect is the part of the definition that makes the most sense to me. Seems that many idioms get taken for granted over the years. I appreciated the question and the opportunity to think about it. Thanks Janis and everyone for all the answers.

BTW, I'm very new to the world of code, irregardless and nevertheless, I'm going to give it a try here and hope you'll forgive me for experimenting.

I HATE THAT "WORD"!!!!!!

and I hate very few words...sorry for the peeve-out...

Which word is that? Nevertheless?

please note new subject..

Soooooooooooooooooooorry!

Well, irregardless of your "error", Fauve, I bid you welcome aBoard! And sure, keep experimenting. You can do this by: putting whatever you want to try, and Previewing it--you can then see what everything looks like wihout actually posting it. Or, you can post something, then delete it (or not) as you please! T'won't hurt anything.

Oh, what? now I'm sposed to read subject lines? And assume they have anything to do with the nature of the post? Might as well expect me to remember which Dylan song has which title! I can't help it if some people don't know the difference between the negating in- and the intensive in-. Some people hate the word 'moist'. Sheesh! As far as I know there's some people out there who hate the word 'the'. Doesn't mean they have to go around ranting about it in the face of poor innocent people who don't have these irrational phobias.

Some people hate the word 'moist'.

Le terme fléchissable est trop moelleux! (link).

Well, at least I'm not ranting about ranting...

It is SO hard for me not to "rofl", but I will refrain in deference to those with snooty stuck up refined sensibilities.

Thanks for the welcome, Jackie. I'm not even sure what sins I've committed.
But after reading your post and doing some more digging around, I see now there are many places to check out, here at the site. So I'll continue to do that to get better acquainted with things.

In the meantime, maybe everyone should just go here and chill:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9urPHwg3k0
Cracks me up every time!

PS
Re: "moist link"
Who knew?

That link is pretty funny reading. Interestingly, no one mentioned the word I will not type or say, that I feel is truly horrible, the "c" word. It's just so derogatory and hateful. Perhaps it's just too awful even for that forum! :0)

quoting one of LL's disclaimers, "We're also not talking about ethnic slurs, or words that are sexually or religiously taboo or offensive (though some of the words do have sexual associations, even if weak ones)."

Getting back to nonetheless I have begun to wonder if it's an eggcorn. The OE was naÞylæs. While na meant 'no' or 'not' and læs meant 'less', Þy only meant 'the' in the masculine and neuter singular instrumental. I'm thinking it might well have been some sort of word in its own right and only became analyzed as 'none the less' at a later date. Someone who knows more about the history of English would have to take it from here.

You don't need to, they all sound the same anyway...play one you've played 'em all...

Heretic!!!