My fascination with birds is multifold.
One aspect of bird behavior that I have wondered about for several years is the decision-making process that is involved in the flights of winter feeding flocks.
Will you kind-hearted Awaders help me by expanding this study to what you see?
Thanks. Simply note the direction that flocks of non-migratory birds are flying in the morning, and then note the direction that they fly at dust to roost.
My observation is that they fly into the sun on both occasions. That is, they fly eastward towards their feeding grounds in the morning, and then fly westward to roost for the night. Why?
Would you please check on your birds this Feburary and tell me what you see?
Milo
Start of a conjecture:
see para 2Like some insects, some birds use polarized light to assist in navigation. Insects tend to be less active at midday, because there is less polarized light when the sun is high.
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Start of a conjecture:
see para 2
Like some insects, some birds use polarized light to assist in navigation. Insects tend to be less active at midday, because there is less polarized light when the sun is high.
Yes, inselpeter, but you and your url don't address my question, namely, is it your observation that non-migrating gatherings of birds fly east in the morning and west in the afternoon?
The question is simple...address it. 
time is short, and starts are starts
Anyway, I find your observation interesting, but I can't myself confirm it. I was wondering about a why.
As to the rest, I tend to frown most at midday.
Friday I saw three or four skeins of geese at about 8:45 AM. They were all flying mostly west with a variable north component.
Geese don't count, Faldage. That isn't to say that they can't count, but geese don't roost in trees. At least they don't down south when they are on vacation.
And Inselpeter, Yes, I think that the polarized vision of birds influences many aspects of their behavior. One such influnce could be the effects of polarized light as the sun slowly drops beneath the horizon - the green flash of cruse ships. Is this flash the signal for the flock to rush in unison to the safety of the overnight roosting trees? Or are they simply responding to a subtle movement of a leader with their keen eyesight as Maverick has suggested.
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Geese don't count, Faldage. That isn't to say that they can't count, but geese don't roost in trees. At least they don't down south when they are on vacation.
Din't nobody say nothing bout nobody roosting in no trees! And we have geese around here all year long so, far's I kin tell our geese ain't no migratories.
I'm curious, what size are the birds in question? Upstate, we have mostly chickadees and yellow finches, as well as humming birds and some larger species: jays, morning doves, and an occasional cardinal. The vista isn't large enough to observe the movements you're talking about -- at dawn, they just appear in the trees at the periphery of the yard, and fly to the feeder near the house and back all day long, depending on who's outside. This tropism would be interesting.
Hmm.
After thinking about it I agree I'm wrong. I confess I don't know much about the habits of geese except to know that they don't fly around just for the hell of it. If you can, Mister Faldage, please find out where they go during the day. It would be good to know if they sleep around or return faithfully to their favorite, wet, cold, nests at night.
And please, continue reporting the hour and compass direction of their daily flights.
Geese are birds too, you know.
Dear iselpeter.
Black birds of any kind. Or mixed flocks, searching the countryside for food in winter. You've seen the breatakingly beautiful patterns as they fly against the clear winter sky, splitting off and recombining in a airal ballet choregraphed by the gods.
And so within that dance lies our query...
What bird, or what mechanism, determines the direction that the group will take in their communal search for food?
The tropism is indeed interesting.
The Canadian geese that over-winter all over New York State are, I think, migratory. But they've discovered lawns, which seem to provide habitat without bother, and so they settle in. Maybe they've just shortened their route of migration?
Yes, blackbirds. There were huge flocks of them where I went to college, not too far from here. Beautiful and unsettling. I remember particularly the calls of their thousands abruptly ending as I walked past the old oak perch, the clatter replaced by woosh of wings. Unfortunately, I only noticed their mad circling, shifting ink on grey winter skies, and no sun to follow.
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Yes, blackbirds. There were huge flocks of them where I went to college, not too far from here. Beautiful and unsettling. I remember particularly the calls of their thousands abruptly ending as I walked past the old oak perch, the clatter replaced by woosh of wings. Unfortunately, I only noticed their mad circling, shifting ink on grey winter skies, and no sun to follow.
Keenly observed and poetically said, inselpeter.
But remember that birds see light differently than we humans.
Their vision is thought to operate beyond ours and further in the ultra violet * spectrum of light.
Your grey winter skies might be their romantic sunset. 
This morning as I drove though the gloom of a cold driving rain I was surprised to see a wavy band of several hundred birds crossing above the highway and headed due East towards the bedroom community of Inglenook. This group of blackbirds I have labeled the "Boyles bunch". I see this flock of blackbirds more than any other group because my travel schedule neatly coincides with their morning flight.
On clear and warmer days their flights have been more exuberant; forming subgroups and flying in curving sweeps and proforming nifty flips before reconvening as a single moving flock.
The Boyles bunch always fly to the east in the morning to feed in Inglenook. There they feed on the acorns that have been rejected by the fat squirrels who live in the manicured yards of the Inglenookians, who hardly notice the birds intrusion.
Two years ago, last Thanksgiving weekend, we were driving back from Pennsylvania and went through Hartford Connecticut on the way home. There were thousands and thousands of crows perched on every possible spot; on light poles, the lower buildings, bridge rails etc. in addition to the ones flying around looking for a spot. I'd never seen so many in one place. It was a bit disorienting to see them in the center of the city, but a wonderful sight. I don't know what was up.
A couple of hours before that, as we were heading East across New Jersey, there were many dozens of very large flocks of Canadian geese heading Northwest. Why, I don't know, but vastly more than I'd ever seen in any sky.
About two hours later, just a mile or so from our home in Westernmost Rhode Island, an owl flew across our path as we drove down the dark, semi-rural road. We think it was a Barred Owl. The best bird day yet.
This past Saturday, as we drove by a section of the Situate Reservoir in Rhode Island, we saw a Bald Eagle [Haliaeetus leucocephalus]. It was a couple of hundred yards out on the ice, and a small crowd was gathered at the spillway to check it out. It had just finished eating, according to one gentleman who had been there for a half hour or so. There were pairs of binoculars in use, including ours. The ID was positive. There have been sightings near there, but not very many and our first.
I don't have a Life List, but I think that this is a good one to start it with.
on a late evening return trip from Toronto, my friend and I saw geese flocks numbering in the thousands. one flock could still be seen in the air from nearly ten miles distance. it looked like a rip in the sky.
Wow! "...a rip in the sky"!
Lucky you, etaoin.
I felt lucky. it was really quite beautiful, and amazing.
I love seeing the great migrations of geese. I always feel elated to see them.
I find a lot of solace and peace in the fact that no matter what happens, the geese go and the geese come back.
It seems to put everything in perspective - as you head into dark days, you know that the bright days will come.
Or, if you will, life will go on and tomorrow is a different day.
But maybe that's just me. Hubby kinda rolls his eyes when he sees me looking up at the migrating geese in contentment.
Gee Belmar, you put into words the strong feelings of awe that are engendered in most of us as we watch a large flock of geese flying overhead. Truly, as you say, the seasonal movement of geese flying against the backdrop of the open sky is a high moment in life. A special union between ourselves and our world that is instantly seen by all who have souls that can see.
Tell your husband to go build a box.
Nah. Hubby, the very sensible accountant-type
always smiles lovingly while he rolls his eyes, not quite understanding why this or that makes me happy, but loving me for the quirkyness anyway, so I think I’ll keep him.
>>> A special union between ourselves and our world that is instantly seen by all who have souls that can see. Very poetically and beautifully said, Milum. Merci.
One autumn day my cousin (in Alberta) was watching 2 separate V's of Canada geese travelling in opposite directions. Apparently they weren't watching though as a couple of geese collided head on!
I've seen V's going in different directions but I've never seen any geese collide. Can geese be embarrassed?
what ridiculous, anserine behavior.
My Mom said they should have honked.
(and now you know where I get my sense of humor)
HA! You silly goose, you!
(and now the extent of mine though tsuwm does win with his wordy one)
Saw some geese Friday morning about 8:45. They were pointed west but they were moving north. There was a bit of a breeze out of the south.
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Saw some geese Friday morning about 8:45. They were pointed west but they were moving north. There was a bit of a breeze out of the south.
Not to question your keen powers of observation, Faldage, but it is odd that a slight breeze could blow a bird as big as a goose ninety degrees off the direction that it was pointed.
I'd sooner believe that you took a wee morning nip against the damp bitter cold than believe that birds fly crooked.
But I'm no expert on birds or drinking.
Mebbe you don't keep up with the weather reports from Damyankia, but the slight breezes were on the close order of 50 mph. We had significant power outages across the area. Some New Englanders are still out of power. The geese were trying to fly west.
Wow! Fifty miles an hour. When a wind that strong visits Dixieland we take Greyhound buses to excape.
Faldage do you think it possible that the geese that you saw the other morning had been turned around 360 degrees by the wind and were trying to fly East instead of West?
Maybeso?
Mayhap we can toss this datum in the holding tank and call it anomalous till we have more to work with.
Toss if you like, brother Faldage, but my observations here in Alabama are consistent. All observations made by me this winter found that flocking birds invariably fly towards the rising sun in the morning, and then fly towards the setting sun at night.
Moreover, in watching the actions of roving bands of blackbirds I have discovered a remarkable aspect of the collective behavior of these birds that is new to our understanding of the decision making process of all animals.
I will explain this remarkable discovery later.
My observations here in New York are also consistent. I wonder if my sample is any more delocalized than is yours. Have you been traveling about in many areas of Alabama or have you noticed the behavior of a few birds in but one small area?
It is an interesting topic. As well as compass direction, are you able to compare the location of major food and water sources vs night roosting sites?
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My observations here in New York are also consistent. I wonder if my sample is any more delocalized than is yours. Have you been traveling about in many areas of Alabama or have you noticed the behavior of a few birds in but one small area?
How dare you question my observational methodology? Did I not send you the Birmingham Black Barons baseball cap that I promised two years ago?
Of course, my sample is limited. Can I help it if my sample is centered on the early birds that pass over my route to work at dawn?
But non-the-less, if limited, my morning birds are consistent . Not once this season have they flown any direction but towards the rising sun.
(If you've lost the cap I'll send you another one.)
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It is an interesting topic. As well as compass direction, are you able to compare the location of major food and water sources vs night roosting sites?
Not exactly Zed, I simply assumed that when flocks of blackbirds are flying in the morning that they are not out to steal hubcaps but to eat. But I do know that they can be seen feeding on the acorns of suburban lawns, and in the direction of their morning flights lie what in Alabama passes for suburbia.
I will report back to you the suspicions I have about their doings in these neighborhoods after I venture out into them this Saturday.
See you Sunday.
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My observations here in New York are also consistent. I wonder if my sample is any more delocalized than is yours. Have you been traveling about in many areas of Alabama or have you noticed the behavior of a few birds in but one small area?
How dare you question my observational methodology? Did I not send you the Birmingham Black Barons baseball cap that I promised two years ago?
Of course, my sample is limited. Can I help it if my sample is centered on the early birds that pass over my route to work at dawn?
But non-the-less, if limited, my morning birds are consistent . Not once this season have they flown any direction but towards the rising sun.
(If you've lost the cap I'll send you another one.)
That's right. You did not send me a Birmingham Black Barons cap. And the one I did not lose I bought from the Cooperstown Ball Cap Co. so you don't have to not send me another one.
My birds are equally consistent.
How on Earth does a blackbird crack open an acorn?
> I simply assumed that when flocks of blackbirds are flying in the morning that they are not out to steal hubcaps
ah, you're observing rural blackbirds!
> How on Earth does a blackbird crack open an acorn?
That's nothing, you should see it try to get Norton of its computer! ;]
Heck, like a kid with spinach and cake I couldn't wait untill Saturday and so I hurried through the Inglenook neighborhood this afternoon spying on the blackbirds in order to expose the modus operandi of their hitherto secret cult.
And here is the skinny...
Blackbirds vote with their stomachs.
Winter feeding flocks reach an optimum size by simple accretion. That is to say that the larger the feeding flock the more efficient the collective eating machine is in ravaging the countryside and protecting its members from predation.
This communist structure is self rejuvenating; the specialization of individual birds is temporal and does not require a "pecking order" in order to effect roles that require the individual to forgo feeding.
In a nutshell, the strong and well fed bird operates from a innate biological imperative to watch for danger while the others feed.
It follows that within the larger flocks there are more sentinels availabe who are willing to watch from the tops of tall trees and then to fly to other nearby feeding grounds after a suitable time has passed.
The direction of the movement of the flock is controlled by a visual "critical mass" mechanism that dictates that flock movemnt is always towards an accretionary population of the future.
And then the gang breaks up in the Spring and they become husbands.
Well? Does anyone else have something to say?
Maybe I've been a little too impertinent in my abstract to warrant a serious response.
Oh well, win some, lose some, your loss, my gain.
Allo Milum
What do you mean they become husbands when the gang breaks up in the spring? Do the females fly elsewhere in the winter?
It'd be interesting to know if some of the birds go out to look for feeding grounds and lead the flock to them. Let me go see if I can find anything on the net.
==============================
I found this cool site while looking on the net to see if I could find an answer to my question about the foraging.
Cornell Lab of Ornithology
Good site Bel, this part, in particular, is right down my alley...
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Where Have All the Robins Gone?
What happened to all the robins? I’m not seeing them any more.
Each year in late summer and fall, robins leave the territories where they’ve raised their young. They spend fall and winter in flocks, traveling to places where they can find more food. In fall, we receive questions from people in some areas who are wondering where the robins have gone, and questions from people elsewhere who are incredulous because they’ve been inundated with large flocks of robins.
By flocking, the robins benefit by having more eyes to look out for predators and to find food. You probably won’t see individual robins again until spring when the demands of finding and defending a territory cause them to leave the flock and strike out on their own.
Although robins are one of the most familiar and widespread birds in North America, their patterns of movement are poorly understood. In fall, their migrations are often influenced by the availability of fruit, but in spring they move in response to the availability of soil invertebrates, such as earthworms. Their numbers in particular places may vary from year to year.
Robin sightings reported by participants of the Great Backyard Bird Count show that robins tend to avoid areas with deep snow cover. This makes sense, since they often search for food in the soil.
In Feburary I was amazed to see several hundred robins flocking about in the trees and grounds of the Huntsville Alabama library. At first I mistook them for Red-breasted Blackbirds (which, in a taxonomic way, that's what they are) but I was told that Red-breasted Blackbirds are particular to the western states so I guess they were robins.
No, Bel, I can't well sex flocking winter birds but it is known that some bands of crop destructive blackbirds are made up of only young unattached males.
I will elaborate later.
Thanks for your interest.
I was quite curious about what bird you meant when you were talking about robins.
There wasn't any specific clasification for "robin" so I started at the top and found "american Robin." It's what we call a "merle d'Amérique" (the merle of America) or "rouge gorge" (red throat).
I've never seen a flock of robins. It must be beautiful. Robins are seldom seen here. It's a happy thing to see a robin. Seeing two together is rare enough that you'll tell the folks at work when you get to the office.
We see no robins here. I see cormorants sometimes, cattle egrets, pearl-eyed thrashers, hummingbirds, a few parrot-beaked anis, a woodpecker that is endemic to this part of the Caribbean, some sea eagles and hawks I don't know the proper names of but if you go into the mangrove swamps in winter, you find all types of water dependent snow birds.
Good heavens, I thought the snowbirds would be on the beaches.
(Canadian term for retired folk who head south every year at the first hint of frost)
Same in Michigan, Zed, but they were named after the birds not vice versa. We've got the human ones here, too, and they are on the beaches and in the hotels and clogging up the roads, etc. etc.
>>>We've got the human ones here, too, and they are on the beaches and in the hotels
Phewf, good thing to hear Consuelo. Zed and I were about to mount a rescue operation to save our old folks from the swamps.
Blackbirds fly east into the morning sun, they don't contemplate, they just fly. Some take position in the uppermost limbs of the barren winter trees while most feed on the ground. You, the few folks here who care, must reason why some of this gathering of birds are willing to forgo feeding for the common good.
Your answers, as members of a communal group of strange animals, will contribute towards our understanding of the nature of the cultural import of life.
Don't you think?
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Don't you think?
Of course I think. Every Saturday, need it or not.
> must reason why some of this gathering of birds are willing to forgo feeding for the common good.
don't they trade off? I've watched flocks of turkeys do the same thing; a tom will stand watch for a while, and then another will take over. meerkats do it too, na?
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Don't they trade off? I've watched flocks of turkeys do the same thing; a tom will stand watch for a while, and then another will take over. meerkats do it too, na?
Exactly, etaoin, but what is the stimulus that promps, and the impetus that fuels, this seemingly altruistic example of avian behavior?
This is the $64 question.
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Of course I think. Every Saturday, need it or not.
And good thinking you do, good Faldage. Your burden is your over-filled mind. For many months of Saturdays you have filled your considerable brain with a statictical stadium of double-headers and switch-hitters while excogitating until the wee hours of night for the answer to that great burning philosophical question of all Baseballdom, namely "Who's on First?".
I am here to help. I am going to do your thinking for you.
Very slowly I am going to count to one hundred and then if you or etaoin and anybody else hasn't figured out the answer (to the bird question not the baseball question) I will give it here in the next post.
uh, basic survival of the species?
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uh, basic survival of the species?
...twenty-six...twenty-seven.
(So right you really are, etaoin. But since all actions of all lifeforms are directed towards the continuation of the species or else they don't continue, it would serve us better here if you would go ahead and burn an extra brain cell or two and try to be a little more specific)...now where was I?...oh yeah,
twenty-two...twenty-three...
uh, maybe they get more girls?
They get to watch Britney Spears sunbathing by her swimming pool.
They get to change the rhyme to three and twenty.
They compete to see who can perch on the tiniest, wavingest, whippingest branch of the old oak tree.
They get to shit on their mate's lover, who is feeding below them.
They get to spot acorns and then dive bomb to open them.
They get nearer to God.
They look pretty as desiccated Christmas Balls in season and out.
They are calling the other birds to prayer.
They are looking to see if the British are coming.
The air is better up there.
They get to watch and see where all the good chow is.
Not half bad, inselpeter.
Like I've said, you've got too much imagination to be a dry punctilious bird watcher. And of course you are right, from tree tops they can better see available food and Britney Spears as well as hungry hawks and kids with BB guns.
But you didn't address the question at hand. I'll rephrase it...
What is the instigating behavioral mechanism for some blackbirds to sit diligently at the tops of tall trees while all the other blackbirds merrily feed on the bountiful ground below ?
Just who in the hell elected them as leaders?
Or, alternately,
Why are these poor birds being punished while all other birds get to eat?
twenty-nine...thirty...thirty-one...
I certainly did address the problem. Your question, so it would seem, asks for behavioral incentives, and I provided several, of which one might be sufficient for a black bird. Poontang might be another. And I would hasten to add that this behavior in itself does not make them leaders, but guards. I will be interested to see what solution you offer, and what supporting evidence. Your speculations can be interesting but, all things being equal, one speculation is as good as another.
Anyway, I rather like birds.
An amateur naturalist friend of mine who, during his retirement, built two nature museums and inummerable nature paths on his property near Ludlow, VT, posted a 3x5 card on the wall that said something about avian metabolism and skull size, and then continued, "birds are not very intelligent, but they are highly emotional." He signed it with the name of an invented authority. It still makes me chuckle. apropos birds, only
> Ludlow, VT
pretty country down there. I have friends in Belmont.
...seventy-six...seventy-seven...
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uh, maybe they get more girls?
Think a bit, etaoin. Winter birds are not like everready human bunny rabbits, they court only in the spring.
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I certainly did address the problem. Your question, so it would seem, asks for behavioral incentives, and I provided several, of which one might be sufficient for a black bird... And I would hasten to add that this behavior in itself does not make them leaders, but guards. I will be interested to see what solution you offer, and what supporting evidence. Your speculations can be interesting but, all things being equal, one speculation is as good as another.
Now inselpeter, you really must take care with your semantics.
In "speculations", as in everything, all things are never equal,
and since nothing at all can be "proved" absolutely, we are left with our attempt to understand the World by reasoning with words.
But we won't get far if you keep anthropomorphizing birds as "guards" and not "leaders".
...seventy-eight....seventy-nine...
> Think a bit, etaoin. Winter birds are not like everready human bunny rabbits, they court only in the spring.
that don't mean they don't think the girls aren't still watching.
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that don't mean they don't think the girls aren't still watching.
Etaoin, let's say for example you have a bird brain.
Could you remember in the spring that cute chick you saw when flocking around during the winter?
Sixty-six...sixty-seven...
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… let's say for example you have a bird brain.
Could you remember in the spring that cute chick you saw when flocking around during the winter?
Considering what we're learning about bird brains lately I wouldn't reject that hypothesis so readily. Besides, the behaviour is shared, the members of a given flock are probably closely related and share the genetic trait. The trait contributes to the overall survival rate of the flock. What more do you need?
I do eagerly await whatever whackadoodle milo nonsense you're about to come up with. Get to a hundred already.
Just who in the hell elected them as leaders?
They have elections, but it is at night when you can't see them and they clean up all of the balloting materials and put them away before the sun comes up.
Four hundred twenty seven, six and three quarters, forty two point oh eight five.
eighty-six...eighty-eight... aaah, stick it! I'm tired of counting.
The time of reckoning is now. You all have did your dids
and dabbed your dabs and now you must stand naked before reality.
In a short minuite I will post the truth about flocking birds
and presto-chango you all will magically become wiser.
See you post-haste (so to speak).
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...seventy-six...seventy-seven...
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uh, maybe they get more girls?
Think a bit, etaoin. Winter birds are not like everready human bunny rabbits, they court only in the spring.
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I certainly did address the problem. Your question, so it would seem, asks for behavioral incentives, and I provided several, of which one might be sufficient for a black bird... And I would hasten to add that this behavior in itself does not make them leaders, but guards. I will be interested to see what solution you offer, and what supporting evidence. Your speculations can be interesting but, all things being equal, one speculation is as good as another.
Now inselpeter, you really must take care with your semantics.
In "speculations", as in everything, all things are never equal,
and since nothing at all can be "proved" absolutely, we are left with our attempt to understand the World by reasoning with words.
But we won't get far if you keep anthropomorphizing birds as "guards" and not "leaders".
...seventy-eight....seventy-nine...
You know, Milo, I happen to think you can be pretty funny, so I read you, but what you call a discussion is such a heap styrene bear traps as to be at best perplexing. If I am anthropomorphizing, it is only following your lead (and I should know better). 'Twas you who first suggested the role of leader. This is IP signing off this evidently non-interactive thread. All the best, mate.
He's at his funniest when he thinks he's trying to fool us into thinking he's pretending to be serious.
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He's at his funniest when he thinks he's trying to fool us into thinking he's pretending to be serious.
Notso Faldage, but I'm at my best when I'm trying to provoke you into chiding me in your 10,000th AWAD post. 
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… your 10,000th AWAD post.
Glad you're keeping track.
And you're just so cute and chidable, you big ol' Christmas turkey, you.
I'm not keeping track, faldage, I'm watching with intent.
Your 10,000th post is a milestone event. Your thoughts have improved the lives of many of us here who have taken the time to listen to your learned pronouncements.
You sir, are a polymath, as was and is your predecessor, namely, "Bill Hunt".
You sir, are in good company, and so is Bill Hunt.
Salute!
I like stats, too.
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I like stats, too.
Good, etaoin, because you are one today, and one day in the future you will, God willing, be another one. 
Which brings me back to birds. (See next post)
Insights into Understanding Collective Flight
and Feeding Behavior of Black Birds in Winter
Abstract: While flying to feeding grounds and when engaged in maneuvers related to selecting sites for feeding, flocking blackbirds utilize certain aspects of pre-adaptive behavior, and apply certain principals of probability theory in order to maximize the chances of a successful feed.
Observations
With first light groups of blackbirds emerge from the cover of large leafed evergreen trees and fly to resting places on wires or barren trees to warm their feathers in the morning sun. A small time later, after other birds who have nested elsewhere join up with them, they lope off, flying towards the morning sun.
Sometimes it takes a while to catch up with them and usually they are on the ground feeding when the observer (me) locates the feeding flock.
Edit: (to be concluded this week.)
. . . a lot of smoke and hokum signifying nothing.
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. . . a lot of smoke and hokum signifying nothing.
And where there's smoke, there's mirrors.
And where there are mirrors there are vanities
And where there are vanities, there are girls
And where there are girls, there is no explanation
[/water off back]