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#81816 09/26/02 04:01 PM
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of troy Offline OP
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i have started to read Oliver Sacks book Uncle Tungsten , and it it wonderful, and it seems like the book will provide me with any number of new words..use link to read the first chapter for your self.
[url]www.oliversacks.com/utexcerpt.html[/url[

Vug is one word he uses-- one that came into English from the cornish, vooga, coming originally from the latin fovea (i think)a small pit..

He uses the word when refering to old (roman age mines) in england, and the ore the romans collected, cassiterite, a tin ore and mentioned a old roman name for the UK as being Cassiter Isles, (very un-sure of was it Cassiter or ... Cassit.? Casset..? since i don't have the book in front of me)

I remember once hearing the the old roman name for the UK was 'the tin islands" and the prime reason they came to UK was for tin, after the tin mines in southern europe were played out. As the ability to mine and smelt iron developed, tin (to use with copper to make bronze) became less important.

Was is interesting, is cassiterite is from the greek word for tin.

But Tin on the period table is (b)Sn, comming from the latin ??--(i don't know tin on its own, only as "Stannous Floride", a salt of tin, but i am guessing it is 'Stannous')

Does any one know when the romans started use their own word for tin or why?


#81817 09/26/02 04:08 PM
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Well, here's what Atomica said:

WORD HISTORY The origins of the word tin may date to a time before Europe had been settled by speakers of Indo-European languages, such as the Germanic and Celtic languages. Related words for this metal are found in almost all Germanic languages, such as German Zinn, Swedish tenn, and Old English tin (as in Modern English), but no other Indo-European language family has such a word. This fact suggests that the word tin may have been borrowed into the Germanic languages from a pre-Indo-European language of Western Europe. This possibility is supported by the Bronze Age importation to the Near East of tin and copper from Europe, where the metals were produced and metal objects were manufactured. Lest we be too amazed by this accomplishment, we might remember another remarkable achievement of pre-Indo-European society, the construction of huge megalithic monuments such as Stonehenge.

It's interesting but doesn't really answer your question. But now we know that tin has very old roots!


#81818 09/26/02 08:36 PM
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The Sn for tin is from "stannum," as the Pb for lead comes from "plumbum." I think I know the derivation of plumbum - from using it to determine the true vertical (plumb), as a weight on a "plumb bob" because it's heavy/dense - but haven't a clue to how stannum might have arisen. At least there's a starting point.

Not that that helps us to know where "tin" came from. (Do we know where "lead" came from, for that matter?)


#81819 09/26/02 10:19 PM
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old roman name for the UK as being Cassiter Isles

From Brewer's Phrase and Fable (nod to Bill):

Cassiterides
The tin islands, generally supposed to be the Scilly Islands and Cornwall, but probably the isles in Vigo Bay are meant. It is said that the Veneti procured tin from Cornwall, and carried it to the Isles of Vigo Bay, but kept as a profound secret the place from which they obtained it. The Phœnicians were the chief customers of the Veneti.
http://www.bartleby.com/81/3126.html

Lots of links here on the Cassiterides and cassiterite:
http://webster.directhit.com/webster/search.aspx?qry=cassiterides

The upshot is that the Cassiterides were either Cornwall + the Scilly Isles (about as far SW as you can get in the UK) or a group of Mediterranean islands. Oh, and it was the Phoenicians "when Rome was still a tiny village on the Palatine Hill", who got their first. Or the Veneti (whoever they are) if you go by Brewer. Not the Romans, anyway, so not surprising if there are no Latin roots to the cassiteri- words.



#81820 09/26/02 11:36 PM
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Plumbum and stannum are both unknown origin per AHD. They do say that Latin may have gotten plumbum from the same unknown source as Greek got molubdos, their word for lead.


#81821 09/27/02 07:10 AM
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Thanks for bringing up the subject of Oliver Sacks, Helen. I saw him this week in a very interesting programme (US, I think) about a man who had an operation to restore his sight, giving scientists an opportunity to comunicate with a highly articulate patient with the sight of a three year old in order to study the science of preception. I felt very sorry for the man involved but was glad that he was so willing to involve himself in experiements that could eventually benefit others.

Oliver Sacks also wrote the book which wins the award for my favourite title:
http://www.oliversacks.com/hat.html


#81822 09/27/02 10:23 AM
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Atomica give the plumb derivation the other way around: the word "plumb" as in vertical coming from the Latin for lead (plumbum), used to determine vertical-ness.


#81823 09/27/02 11:54 AM
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of troy Offline OP
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Yes, Jo, Oliver Sacks is a wonderful writer, and the book you mentioned is a great one. So is his book AN ANTHROPOLOGIST ON MARS (which is the book that has the story about the gentleman you wrote about) to read a little, http://www.oliversacks.com/2see1.html

and Awakenings (the commercial movie) is very close to the what actually happened in his early years as a doctor. (to the point that he and Robin Williams even look a bit alike!

i am going to a lecture on Uncle Tungsten in october and will have an oportunity to get both UT and Hat autographed --(yes, one of my vanities. i don't go just to book signing, but lectures and signings!) Sacks lives only about 5 miles as the crow flies from where i currently live, but he live on one of the many island that are part of NY, and driving to his neighborhood would be about a 10 mile trip. His island home, City Island, is very similar to any small new england fishing village. it still has active sailmakers and other sea related crafts. it one of those special places in NY.



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