The phrase 'casting off cables' appears often in the Odyssey translation I'm reading.
What exactly does this mean nautically? I don't know anything about sailing and obviously not about sailing eight centuries B. C.
The men cast off cables when they're ready to go off to sea, if that context is helpful at all.
it brings to mind (modern day?) bitts and bollards.
bollard
1) a post of metal or wood on a wharf around which to fasten lines
2) a post or pair of posts on the deck of a ship for securing lines: bitt
(on a "ship", lines <> cables)
Dr. Bill just sent this possibility:
"The Greeks would have had two choices when
they brought ships to shore. They could beach them
if they had a beach that was just sand and wouldn't
hurt the hull. But if the beach were cobble, they would
have put an anchor out from stern of ship, and then
had a cable running up shore to some place where they
could fasten in. I think the word for cable was 'byssus'.
And our word for deep water 'abyss' meant orignally
'too deep for the anchor rope'."
Thanks, Bill.
As a sometime sailor, what Dr. Bill says makes sense and the "byssus/abyss" story is deeply interesting.
Sailors "cast off" when they leave shore. What they are "casting off" is their tethering to the shore.
If they are docked at a pier, they will have lines from the vessel strung fore and aft to pilings on the pier.
Before they can set out again, crew members must leave the vessel momentarily to untether the lines and cast them aboard ship to be used again. Of course, these crew members must leap aboard smartly before the vessel sets sail without them.
So, somewhat ironically, before you can "cast off", you have to "cast on" your tethering lines or cables.
Perhaps 3000 years ago, in the absence of man-made piers, permanent cables were tethered ashore at heavily trafficked landing sites, as Dr. Bill suggests, so that the tethering cables were literally cast off the vessel in preparation for departure, the very opposite of what happens today.
So, it would seem that this seafaring lingo remains tethered to its origins in the past, altho it no longer makes any sense in the present.
Today, sailors cast off lines when they arrive at a dock, and cast on lines when they set sail. But they still say they are "casting off" when they are really casting on.
Plutarch, you and Bill just can't seem to mind your own business, can you. Now you've got me confused.
Do you mean when I go bass fishing with my buddy Bob Huddleson and his dog Tramp,
I gotta say "cast on" instead of "cast off"?
Shove off mates. This is another example of Logical Correctness gone amuck
and of it I'll have none.
Robert Fagles translates Homer as 'casting off' when the ships are about to leave shore.
I gotta say "cast on" instead of "cast off"?
Well now, themilum. What are you gonna "cast off" when you say "cast off"?
If you "cast off" your lines you won't have any lines to tie up with when you return. And you won't be casting Tramp overboard if your buddy Bobby has anything to say about it.
"Cast off" the skipper commanded
To a novice since his ship was short-handed
Into the drink
Went the lines in a blink
"Keelhaul him!", the crew countermanded.
P.S. I've got it, themilum. You can say "Shove off".
>Before they can set out again, crew members must leave the vessel momentarily to untether the lines and cast them aboard ship to be used again. Of course, these crew members must leap aboard smartly before the vessel sets sail without them.
Having spent many a fine morning or afternoon riding the ferry from Ocracoke Island to the mainland, I will have to disagree with you a bit on this. The ropes that tether the ship to the pier or dock are called hawsers, and are permanently affixed at the landward end. When the vessel pulls in a shoreside person tosses the hawser to the crewmember at the bow or stern, which latter person ties around the whatever they call the things on the ship. Of course this only works where the vessel is pulling in to its normal port of call, I'd guess, but ferries do just that.
Otherwise, somewhat like (but not exactly like) the famous cry at Ford's Theatre on 14th April 1865, you would hear, "Is there a hawser on the dock?"
>whatever they call the things on the ship.
<exaspirated sigh>
that would be your bitt; or, your bollard, if you are so inclined to only keep one of these silly words in your vocabulary.
-joe webster
Said the ship's dog, "Cables and bitts! Cables and bitts!"
The ship's sails are clearly propelled by a Wordwind.
(well played Wordwind
)
HA!!!! Oh, that was GREAT!
Psst--Ted: take a look at the second post...
Edit: Oh man, now you've done it, WW--
Bollards and bitts; collards and grits!
Dr bill and i have been back and forth about the ropes, and wondering what fibers, and when rope walks came about.
i suspect linen for rope, since 1) linen was cultivated in ancientn egypt (for sure, and perhaps else where!) and 2) linen is stronger when wet than dry, making it an excellent material for use near water.
as for ropes.. and rope walks.
you only have to watch a few nature/national geographic type specials to see a person (almost universally male) twist twine or sinew, by holding with his teeth, and twisting it by rubbing it across his leg, and form a short lenght of rope. BUT, and this is a big BUT, moving from short lengths to long ropes.. one wonders about the intermediate technology--rope walks seem to complicated to a have just arisen!
Dr bill shared with me his instructions for making rope or twine, i have used almost the same process to make 'decorative cords' --to trim embroidered pillow.. (i used an hand auger, he suggest a variable speed drill..) same idea, really. the real 'trick' is finding a long enough expance to start!(since your original 'strands' are shortened by 75%! (40 feet of yarn will make 10 feet of cord!)
i'll share his directions if anyone is interested. but i know i would be interested in hearing from any sailors if they have any info on rope making..(or hobbist, or spinners, or ... anyone who has an idea!)
is there a difference between rope and cable? in spun goods for knitting, S twists and Z twists have different uses, and qualities, is that also true for rope? (or steel cable? is steel cable strong when its twisted? (thinking of bridges, the cable on GW bridge is not twisted, on Whitestone bridge it is..)
WW Gaines an advantage!
I knew that post was up there with the words bollards and bitts in it, I was just too lazy to go look for it.
Oh, Ted, come on. You're in a cast by yourself--and I'm knots about you.
and never the twine shall meet.
>Oh, Ted, come on. You're in a cast by yourself--and I'm knots about you.
Well I have been known to cast purls before twine.
Here's from a nautical dictionary [Origins of Sea Terms, John G. Rogers, Mystic Seaport, 4th printing]:
"Cable: The anchor line, now chain or rope (or both, depending on the size of the craft), earlier of course always rope, and cable-laid. The term came, via French, from the Latin word 'capalum' for halter.
Cable Laid: In rope days on big ships, heavy lines, such as shrouds and hawsers, were usually made of three three-strand ropes, the cable being of opposite lay, or twist, to the components..."
So, it sounds to me that in Fagles' translation what we would imagine would be the large ships under Odysseus' command each 'casting off' of anchor lines--or anchors a-weigh. Interesting. We've discussed anchors a-weigh before as a curiosity since the anchors weight moves from the ocean back onto the ship itself. In casting off cables, the anchor cables are actually coming back to the ship. Makes sense since Odysseus is often going to islands that are not ports of call, but deserted shores.
Cable Laid: In rope days on big ships, heavy lines, such as shrouds and hawsers, were usually made of three three-strand ropes, the cable being of opposite lay, or twist, to the components..."
From which we get "cable knit" sweaters. Not because they are knit like cables but because they look like cables running through the knit. This could be another strand for Of Troy's book. Just a strand, mind you.
I can assure you this book will be no one night strand. It will take a whole day to read it. :)
the cable being of opposite lay, or twist, to the components..."
when you make yarn, (or rope, or twine or...) you twist it..
the twist can be right handed, (S) or left handed, (Z)--it doesn't matter which way you look at the rope.. the S or Z shape will be there.
the individual strands can then be plyed. 2 or more can be twisted together, to make a multi ply strand, (2 ply, 4 ply, etc)
when you twist the plies together, you can twist them the same way they were first spun, or they can be laid opposite.
so S spun thread can be Z plied.
there are in yarns, terms for the different styles, (i think, but i am not possitive, that "worsted" is S spun, Z plied, (firm, smooth, strong) and "Mule" or "germantown" is Z spun and Z plied. (soft, fluffy, elastic, and prone to abraision)--but i will have to check to make sure this is right.
(i am not into spinning) worsted fabric is made from very fine S spun yarns.
knitted 'cables', in the simplest forms, immitate ropes. more complex cabling is more like the 'knotted' designs that the Celts (and to some degree the scandinavians) used to decorate all manor of things.
re: the subject
anyone recall all of the times in the past when someone would grouse about giving some consideration to changing the subject line when appropriate?!
(by the way, for the uninitiated "?!" is used by some insiders as the appropriate mark for a rhetorical question. this is NOT standard, but is a long-standing usage actually available in some fonts. the worthless word which names this is "interrobang".)
What's the problem, tsuwm? I changed the subject line back to casing off cables because we'd moved beyond the thread starter and I'd found information relevant to the thread starter again. All the posts since I changed back have been about that subject. If I screwed up, let me know where, will ya'?!
Interrobangly yours,
WW
What's the problem, tsuwm? I changed the subject line back to casing off cables because we'd moved beyond the thread starter and I'd found information relevant to the thread starter again. All the posts since I changed back have been about that subject. If I screwed up, let me know where, will ya'?!
Interrobangly yours,
WW
Windward,
(:yarn) v. (non yarn:)
you need to be more (:non-literal:), or pay more attention to the subject line, one.
just making sure..
was my first response ample?!
"?!" is used by some insiders as the appropriate mark for a rhetorical question. It IS? NOW you tell me!
when it comes to twisted fibers, the difference between sewing threads and hawsers for tying up the QEII is simple one of size..and fiber type.
sewing thread is fine cotton, and hawsers are (i dunno!) but they are both made from twisted strands of fiber, that has been plied.
the strands are spun, (one finer, the other coarser)and plied, and the end product is (in construction) basically identical.
(knitted 'cables'(refered to only scantly) are an entirely different subject.)
but from sewing thread to laid cable, is almost fractal.. sewing thread is most certainly made of twisted plies, --anyone who had threaded (or tried to thread) a fine needle knows that!
[quote]I think the word for cable was 'byssus'.[quote]
There are two entries for byssus in the LSJ. As a masculine word it is an alternative form of buthos meaning depth. As a feminine word it means flax or linen.
See:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X11221F4A and
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X13212F4ABingley
oh, thank you, my dear mr bingley! i speculated above that ancient cables might have been made from linen. I know (well i read the works of those who do know) linen was cultivated in ancient times by the eygptions, --as was cotton. secondly, linen's property of being strong when wet would, as well as its ability to resist rotting make it a natural choice for cables, or any thing for boat (sails, etc).
Hemp was also available to the old world, and its a good choice too, but i don't know how long hemp has been cultivated.
still, having the words related leads me to beleive that i was right to speculate that linen might have been the fiber used!
There was a program I caught a little of yesterday about Archimedes' having caught fire a Roman ship. A group of experimenters were trying to figure out how this may have been done with mirrors. They duplicated materials that would have been used in such a ship, a veritable floating tender box, and hemp was one of the materials used to 'caulk' seams, followed by a painting on of tar to seal the hemp in the seams.
From Britannica Online:
Hemp originated in Central Asia, and its cultivation for fibre, recorded in China as early as 2800 BC... And about linen:
Fibre, yarn, and fabric made from the flax plant.
Flax is one of the oldest textile fibres used by humans; evidence of its use has been found in Switzerland's prehistoric lake dwellings. Fine linen fabrics have been discovered in ancient Egyptian tombs. The fibre is obtained by subjecting plant stalks to a series of operations, including retting (a fermentation process), drying, crushing, and beating. Linen is stronger than cotton, dries more quickly, and is more slowly affected by exposure to sunlight. Low elasticity, imparting a hard, smooth texture, makes linen subject to wrinkling. Because linen absorbs and releases moisture quickly and is a good conductor of heat, linen garments feel cool to wearers. Fine grades of linen are made into woven fabrics and laces for apparel and household furnishings. Helen, this writer doesn't say where she got her info., but it sounds likely to me:
To make rope, the ancient Egyptians used reeds and fibre from date palms, as well as grass, papyrus, flax, and camel-hair. But the rope was used not for binding together bolts of cloth or sheaves of any sort; rather it served as a means for gangs of slaves to combine their strength so they might move the enormous stones necessary for construction of the pyramids and other great monuments. The ropes were thick as a wrist; once the stone was set on a sledge with rollers, men, often nearly 200 at a time, could haul it by pulling on four or more long and many-stranded ropes. The Egyptians also used rope for rigging their boats, creating it from strips of leather as well as palm and papyrus fibres. http://www.barcelonareview.com/19/e_bfl.htm
Here's a link to the history of rope making--with a point being made about the length of the rope being determined by the level of machines available during any historical period. When there weren't machines to aid in rope production and rope making was limited to hand twisting and braiding, the ropes were short and of limited use in seafaring. The writer on the site points out that even when ropes could be spliced [before the time of rope-making machines], the rope was twice as thick at the splice point and couldn't be used effectively for shipping.
http://www.rope-maker.com/ropehistory.html
simple rope:
take a length of fiber (i have done this with silk sewing thread) at least 8 times longer than rope or cord desired.
fold in half.
fix one end (i use a cup hoop screwed into the wall)
in the loop at the other end, insert a dowel (a pencil will do
turn the dowel (for ever!)
(in advanced versions, you can use a auger or a power drill on low.. i screwed a second cup hook into a scrap of wood, and set wood into augers chuck..Use auger or drill to turn the yarn)
Eventully the yarn will start to kink.. resist this, (by keeping tension on the yarn
finally (you need help here) grasp twisted yarn at center (half way between the two hooks/hook and dowel and fold (bring the two hooks together..)
--in the egyptian version, you place a short length of rope, with a weight attached to center, and as it kinks, you let it-- and continue twisting. until the whole of yarn is double twisted. (this works if you have a 2 men working. and a pit of some sort. (for the cable to fall into.. and it has to be as deep as your rope will be long!
both men twist, the center point kinks, and fall, the men walk toward each other.. you can see how this would limit the length of the rope or cable .
as you release tension (by folding and bringing starting point and end point together, the cord will twist on its self, --starting at the center. it makes a neat strong cable. (that resists untwisting!)
Rope walks employ the same basic method, only they use gear driven machines, (even if man powered) an the rope walk often has bends, (to facilitate the folding)
Dr bill send me instructions for a third, more advanced method, one that more closely resembles how cable is made today.. i'll copy and post later.
i have made 4+ feet of twisted cord at a time, (it takes about 1 hour) and used it to trim 12 inch square embroidered pillows (and to make matching tie backs for drapes)
In reply to:
still, having the words related leads me to beleive that i was right to speculate that linen might have been the fiber used!
I said the words (bussos (m) and bussos (f)) were similar in form, not that they were related. You might think 'tow' (pull) and 'tow' (coarse flax) were related but they're not.
However, I looked up linen in the Oxford Classical Dictionary, and found that tow is a byproduct of the process of making linen from flax (at the hackling stage)and was used in Greek and Roman times for rope-making. They did have a reference to Pliny's Natural History. I'll see if I can track it down.
Bingley
Am I the only one who thought the chronology here from WW's site was a bit odd:
In the Middle Ages (from the thirteenth century to the eighteenth century), from the British Isles to Italy, rope was made using a "rope walk" method.
Bingley
Well, uh, Bingley, it was Mr. Roper's site, but, no, I hadn't noticed. He didn't say what he meant to say, I guess.
>but i don't know how long hemp has been cultivated.
Prolly just as long as we've had high priests and priestesses.
but i don't know how long hemp has been cultivated.
Prolly just as long as we've had high priests and priestesses.
yeah, but...
the variety of hemp that is good for fiber is the tall stalky weed.. (it grows 8 to 10 feet high!) and the short, bushy, early flowering type is better for, well "medicinal" purposes. hemp fiber plants do well in more northern climates. (its a big fiber crop in canada!) medicinal plants like more sun and milder weather, (the tropics).
no doubt there is over lap in where they can grow.. and perhaps the plants were less distinctive in times past, but fiber hemp is really smokable. it has almost none of the 'active' ingredient associated with its cousin.
For those interested, here is Pliny's account of flax and linen production in Roman times:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?lookup=Plin.+Nat.+19.1It's been chopped up into quite a few parts, so just keep clicking on the right hand arrows.
Bingley