How could one use mutatis mutandis in a sentence? I like the definition in AHD, but would be very hesitant to use the word for a variety of reasons, first and foremost, I wouldn't want to misuse it.
For the uninitiated (as was I till reading the dictionary this morning), it roughly means:
adv. having changes necessarily made
There's even an abbreviation: m.m.
Best regards,
WordWonderer
According to a site by that name, the phrase Mutatis Mutandis is Latin and means "that having been changed which had to be changed" or more commonly, "with the necessary changes"
AWADtalk was about to self-destruct by fastuous postings. Mutatis mutandi, we now have an administrator who can curb the abuses.
Well, here's something from the Internet:
2. The provisions of Article 4, paragraph 2 and paragraph 3 as well as those of Article 5 through Article 7 shall be applied mutatis mutandis to the accreditation provided for in the preceding paragraph, and the provisions of Article 8 through Article 13 shall be applied mutatis mutandis to the person who has received the accreditation provided for in the preceding paragraph (hereinafter referred to as "accredited foreign certification service provider"). http://www.meti.go.jp/english/report/data/gesign3-2e.htmlMy comfort level with using the phrase just went up several levels.
Best regards,
W.W.
M.M. upside-down
W. F. Buckley is notorious for using this phrase (but not only). this is from an exchange of letters to the editor of the NYTimes:
He [Gary Wills] seems to be saying that anyone who failed to reach out to protest an anti-Semitic utterance should be estopped by history from sainthood, a constriction that, mutatis mutandis, would make difficult our canonization of Abraham Lincoln, given his declarations on Negro inferiority; to say nothing of the elevation of American presidents who actually owned slaves.
()
Hey, WW: what sent your comfort level up, sent mine to the bottom.
wwh:
I was being facetious [crossthread references: superplumes--drum major's hat; fastuous--parade, i.e., necessary drum major].
Beating cadences,
WW, m.m.
PS: tsuwm, thanks for the great quote from Words Forever Bucking, a truly quotable writer!
mutatis mutandis
Oh my! I have heard this phrase before but never looked it up. It sounds to me like - well - it's because I know Italian... "mutatis" I rightly guessed to mean "change", but in Italian, "mutande" is underpants!!!!! So whenever I saw this I thought "changing underpants?????? why on earth would you make a Latin phrase for this?" (Of course I guessed there must have been another meaning but I can't get the "changing underpants" thing out of my head!)
indeed, the meaning of "mutande" is something that has to be changed...often.
Do we have such a word in English as mutande--a word that covers broad categories of terms and one that means that any one of the terms required changing (e.g., diapers, ideas, clothes in general, and so on)?
Things that need changing = ? in English...
Best regards,
WordWatching
Do we have such a word in English as mutande--Well, I Roget'ed (hi, tsuwm! <eg>) temporary, knowing it wasn't right. What about provisional?
Jackie,
Something that needs to be changed would be a noun. Isn't provisional strictly an adjective? And provision sure isn't a term covering a broad category of terms that required changing. I'm assuming here that "mutande" is a noun, but I could be dead wrong.
Boggled regards,
Wordwrestler
Isn't provisional strictly an adjective?Yeah--I was just hopin' to foster some discussion. Tried with all my might to think of a noun, and couldn't. But didn't want to make a post just saying I couldn't think of anything!
what about mutate?
Its from the latin mutatus.. and it means to undergo change.. well actually it means to undergo mutation, and mutation means to undergo change.. for all of you out there with your fined toothed combs!)
I don't think we've got an English equivalent of the noun mutande.
In fact [striking an attitude emoticon], I'll defy anyone to find an English noun that means "something that has to be changed."
How's zat for a dare!?
Begging to be refuted,
Wordwarrant
"something that has to be changed."
lightbulb
but only if it really wants to
I don't think we've got an English equivalent of the noun mutande.
Perhaps you're not famililar with the word often used to express this same concept: underwear.
While it in all likelihood comes from the root mutare, I don't believe the modern Italian word has as broad a meaning as is being ascribed to it here.
Bean, emanuela - it just means underwear, right? I think emanuela was being a bit figurative when she applied that broader meaning, but I could be wrong.
That said - let's find a word in some language that does mean all that changeability stuff.
We could form The Order of Mutantis with our solemn charge to be to find the word that means all the stuff that needs changing in the world. Since there's so much stuff in the world that needs to be changed, there sure as heck ought to be a word that sums it up.
In the spirit of this charge,
WordatisWindtandis
Bean, emanuela - it just means underwear, right? I think emanuela was being a bit figurative when she
applied that broader meaning, but I could be wrong.
Well, it wanted to be a joke, but not only.. I mean that the meaning seems really come from the need of changing underwear, but now it is hidden and forgotten - and no, we don't say mutande for everything that has to be changed, even if it would work , as adjective: le cose mutande = things that have to be changed.
We could form The Order of Mutantis with our solemn charge to be...
Forgive me, but if I'm part of a group whose name keeps translating in my head as something like "The Order of Mutant Underwear," I'm going to be anything but solemn as I charge...
find an English noun that means "something that has to be changed."
How far shall we extend the definition of change?
If we change a diaper we end up with a whole new diaper albeit equivalent to the old, just cleaner. If we change a baby we best come out of the process with the same baby as we went in with or momma ain' gonna be happy. If we change a line of code we better have something that works differently than the old.
"Forgive me, but if I'm part of a group whose name keeps translating in my head as something like "The Order of Mutant Underwear," ...writes Hyla...
The name just has a ring, somehow...I think it'll catch on--honestly!
Bottom's regards,
WordWear
The Order of Mutant Underwear
whose motto will be.... (drumroll)....
Honi soit qui mal y pense
for no discernible reason (have I mentioned that I mostly dislike anagrams?), here is a site that lists 100 anagrams for
Honi soit qui mal y pensehttp://www-oss.fnal.gov/~baisley/honisoit.html(I do like #82: Quit Minneapolis? Oh, yes!)
btw, back several years ago, when Jesse S. ran the word-of-the-day at Random House, he gave this explanation for
Honi soit qui mal y pense:
It's French for 'shamed be the person who thinks evil of it'. Supposedly, in the
fourteenth century, Edward III was dancing with the Countess of Salisbury, and her
garter fell off. In response to the snickers of those watching, Edward said "Honi soit
qui mal y pense," and tied the garter around his own leg. The phrase then became the
motto of the order of the garter, which Edward founded.
but I digress. in the spirit of mutatis mutandis, and with mutability meaning a disposition to change, how about mutandibility meaning a need for change?
how about mutandibility meaning a need for change?
I'm sorry, tsuwm, but I can only see that as meaning "able to wear underpants". It's very odd how when learned at a young age, such meanings will be so ingrained!
Edit: that will be the last underwear comment from me, I promise.
how about mutandibility meaning a need for change?Very well done, Sir tsuwm!
I'm sorry, tsuwm, but I can only see that as meaning "able to wear underpants". It's very odd how when learned at a young age, such meanings will be so ingrained!
Mutandibility, so fresh and newly arisen in the language on this the 24th day of April in the year 2002, already has two distinct meanings! How many times in the history of language has that occurred?
And our motto, AnnaS., built upon a garter moved from woman to man, seems as flexible as our Order itself!
Bent knee regards,
Dame DubDub