the inevitable corruption of tongues

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#187492 - 10/28/09 01:11 PM the inevitable corruption of tongues
zmjezhd Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 2436 Loc: R'lyeh	A common lament (more like a rant), on-line and off-, is that linguistic change is corruption and leads to the imminent destruction of language and subsequent incommunication. To see what utter nonsense this is, one needs only to look so far as the history of language change in Europe. Latin started to change even before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. Who, amongst the linguo-Casandras, can cogently argue that Italian, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Catalan, Romanian, Provencal, etc., are worse than Latin or less capable of communication? French is as different a language from Latin as (Present-Day) English is from Old English, but what of it? Great literature exists in all four of those languages.
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#187495 - 10/28/09 01:26 PM Re: the inevitable corruption of tongues [Re: zmjezhd]
Buffalo Shrdlu Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/24/02 Posts: 6685 Loc: Vermont	hear, hear.
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#187496 - 10/28/09 01:37 PM Re: the inevitable corruption of tongues [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
TheFallibleFiend veteran Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 1351 Loc: Virginia, USA	Do you conclude from "language corruption doesn't necessarily produce poor communication" that "it doesn't ever produce poor communication?"
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#187497 - 10/28/09 01:46 PM Re: the inevitable corruption of tongues [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
zmjezhd Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 2436 Loc: R'lyeh	Do you conclude from "language corruption doesn't necessarily produce poor communication" that "it doesn't ever produce poor communication?" No, I conclude that from the fact that I know of no language that, of itself, leads to bad or poor communication.There's another trend that historical linguists have noticed about language change. The language tends to keep changing to make it easier to speak and communicate. For example, the inflectional case system did not simply disappear from Old English and Latin, they were replaced by fixed word order (and, at this point, somebody usually mentions prepositions, but they were used in the case system, too). I'd say poor communication is possible in any language. I have never seen a language corrupt. What does it look and smell like?
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#187498 - 10/28/09 02:03 PM Re: the inevitable corruption of tongues [Re: zmjezhd]
Christine W stranger Registered: 10/26/09 Posts: 8	So we should never judge one form superior to: another, a whole other, a whole nuther?
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#187499 - 10/28/09 02:16 PM Re: archiphonemes dancing on the tip of a tongue [Re: Christine W]
zmjezhd Pooh-Bah Registered: 08/13/05 Posts: 2436 Loc: R'lyeh	So we should never judge one form superior to: another, a whole other, a whole nuther? While I did not use the terms superior or inferior, I did suggest the appropriate registers in which to use the term whole 'nother. Your question in the other thread, only discussed the appropriateness of the use whole 'nother, and I believe that is what I addressed: the context of its usage.
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#187500 - 10/28/09 02:30 PM Re: archiphonemes dancing on the tip of a tongue [Re: zmjezhd]
Buffalo Shrdlu Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/24/02 Posts: 6685 Loc: Vermont	while I love J.S. Bach, the world would be a lesser place without John Coltrane, or Peter Gabriel.
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#187502 - 10/28/09 02:47 PM Re: the inevitable corruption of tongues [Re: Christine W]
BranShea Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/23/06 Posts: 3724 Loc: Netherlands, the Hague	Well, comparing modern English to the English of the 17th century, it has become a lot easier to read. I've just finished R.E. Pritchard's 'Odd Tom Coryate' , quote: "The first noble carowsing that I saw in Germany was at mine Inne in Basil. Where I saw the Germanes drink helter-skelter very sociably, exempting my selfe from their liquid impositions as well as I could. It is their custome whensoever they drink to another, to see their glasses filled up incontinent{for therein they most commonly drinke } and then they deliver it into the hand of him to whom they drinke, esteeming him a very curteous man that doth pledge the whole, according to the old verse: Germanus mihi frater eris si pocula siccas.{German, thou shalt be my brother if thou drainest the cup.} But on the contrary side, they deeme that man for a very rusticall and unsociable peasant, utterly unworthy of their company, that will not with reciprocall turnes mutually retaliate a health. And they verifie the old speeche... eyther drink or be gon. For though they will not offer any villainie or injury unto him that refuseth to pledge him the whole { which I have often seene in England to my great griefe } yet they will so little regard him, that they will scarce vouchafe to converse with him." It is fun to have the old(er) and the newer English both. Edited by BranShea (10/28/09 02:51 PM)
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#187503 - 10/28/09 02:47 PM Re: archiphonemes dancing on the tip of a tongue [Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
TheFallibleFiend veteran Registered: 01/23/02 Posts: 1351 Loc: Virginia, USA	"I'd say poor communication is possible in any language." Does anyone actually argue more than this? "I have never seen a language corrupt. " Does anyone argue this?
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#187508 - 10/29/09 04:31 AM Re: archiphonemes dancing on the tip of a tongue [Re: TheFallibleFiend]
BranShea Carpal Tunnel Registered: 06/23/06 Posts: 3724 Loc: Netherlands, the Hague	I haven't heard it call corruption here, but many people are always worrying about language going down the drain. What I find irritating is what we have: Every ten years a new Wordlist Of The Dutch Language is published by the Dutch Language Union, known as 'The Green Booklet', edited by the Institute of Dutch Lexicology. Meaning spelling changes; not bad in itsself but annoying that from there on many words have been slightly changed to be allowed as correct. Remarkably, in the yearly TV spelling contest, The Belgians usually win from the Dutch.
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