#178659 - 08/12/08 09:12 AM
French place names
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stranger
Registered: 08/12/08
Posts: 2
Loc: California
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Hi -- I am new to this site and hoping that it is OK to ask a non-English question. We live part time in Languedoc (just West of Provence) and a huge number of village names in the area end in '-argues'. Examples: Lansargues, Baillargues, Saturargues -- the list is endless. And of course, just to the South is Camargue (no 's' here). I have failed so far to find anything on the meaning or etymology of this suffix (?). Any hints?
thanks
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#178666 - 08/12/08 12:48 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: Chatter]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2031
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
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Hi
Just wondering what the neighbouring languages are in your area. (High school geography was a long time ago.)
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#178668 - 08/12/08 01:01 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: Zed]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 04/03/00
Posts: 9400
Loc: this too shall pass
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Zed, if you check the thread above the salt* where nuncle addresses this question, you'll see a link to a very nice geographical type chart (read: map) which shows the frequency of -argues. here's another, more specific to language. *making the same post in two different forums usually only tends to divide possibly useful replies.
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#180954 - 12/16/08 01:18 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: zmjezhd]
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old hand
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 830
Loc: Land of Flat River
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"onward, onward, swords against the foe" (I'll get it, yet)
Back in college, in glee club we sang a song about the
Burgundians. It will come eventually. I can hear the music in my head, but the words have to find a way thru all the blockage.
Germany had (or has, I guess) some very beautiful provinces, once duchies,principalities and the like, now states. Central
European History is rife with these themes which made for operas like Siegfried, etc.
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#183784 - 03/21/09 02:01 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: BranShea]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 2270
Loc: R'lyeh
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French for flat is plat.But the feminine of the adjective is plate and rivière 'river' is feminine, no? I think an extra t got slapped on so that folks wouldn't pronounce it plate /plejt/. According to the Wikipedia article, the Oto called it 'flat river', too ( link).
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#183791 - 03/21/09 03:25 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: zmjezhd]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3387
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
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Totally convincing; nice article and pictures too. French to the bottom of it. Ever tripped on a pallid sturgeon Javanluke? pallid sturgeon
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#183793 - 03/21/09 04:25 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: BranShea]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 6595
Loc: Vermont
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don't know about LJ8, but I caught one of these in the Missouri just a few counties north of where the Platte empties: spoonbill!
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#183794 - 03/21/09 04:38 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: Buffalo Shrdlu]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3387
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
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Nooh! What a creature! I always think I've seen the strangest things but there never is an end to it. close up hmm..
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#183797 - 03/21/09 05:09 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: BranShea]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 6595
Loc: Vermont
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yup, and that's a little one (mine wasn't much bigger, only 36" long). I was hoping to have it taxidermied (I didn't dare say stuffed and mounted around here...), but as a skin fish, it's a difficult job, and quite expensive. ah well. memories. did you see this one? big
Edited by etaoin (03/21/09 05:10 PM)
Edit Reason: added link to big paddlefish
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#183816 - 03/22/09 01:46 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: BranShea]
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old hand
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 830
Loc: Land of Flat River
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How do you always manage to find these old threads? I want however to object to (if you don't mind) this: 'platte is French for flat'.
French for flat is plat . In this form : "platte" it really only exists in Dutch and Flemish. It is how we write the adjective from the adverb plat. That is why it struck me as odd when you mentioned it some time ago. What does 'platte' do in the Midwest? Beats me! And I'm not familiar with Dutch nor Flemish. But the history book used to teach the state history mentions it that way. Probably because la riviere is feminine, making the adjective feminine: La riviere platte. (?) The flat river. Finding old threads? Ah retirement, 'tis great. Is there still a Count of Flanders? I know both the Netherlands,Belgium, and Luxembourg are monarchies???
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#183817 - 03/22/09 01:47 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: zmjezhd]
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old hand
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 830
Loc: Land of Flat River
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French for flat is plat.But the feminine of the adjective is plate and rivière 'river' is feminine, no? I think an extra t got slapped on so that folks wouldn't pronounce it plate /plejt/. According to the Wikipedia article, the Oto called it 'flat river', too ( link). thanks zm: I answered before reading your posting.
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#183822 - 03/22/09 06:42 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: LukeJavan8]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3387
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
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OH, yet another one of those miracles. link Here's the gar. Never knew those rivers had these giant fishes in them. Never mind the Duke Luke, nor the Duchess. "The spoonbill, sturgeon and the gar They were the best of friends So when spoonbill needed money one day Sturgeon took out a roll of tens "
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#183841 - 03/23/09 05:44 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: BranShea]
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old hand
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 830
Loc: Land of Flat River
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Just curious about the monarchs.
We have a coronation here each autumn. A local service group
crowns a business person as King of Aksarben, and the daughter
of another is crowned Queen. 115 years of this or so. We have
queens and kings of the prom, Dairy Queen, Dairy Princess, Rose Bowl Queen, etc. For a democracy or republic or whatever we are,
we are fascinated with royalty and monarchy (whatever it is.)
As for gar, spoonbill, and their ilk, we also have the giant
catfish. One recently died (in a local aquarium, over a hundred years old and about 150 lbs.) Caught in the river.
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#183872 - 03/24/09 05:54 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: LukeJavan8]
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member
Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 106
Loc: USA, North Carolina
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Just curious about the monarchs.
We have a coronation here each autumn. A local service group
crowns a business person as King of Aksarben, and the daughter
of another is crowned Queen. 115 years of this or so. We have
queens and kings of the prom, Dairy Queen, Dairy Princess, Rose Bowl Queen, etc. For a democracy or republic or whatever we are,
we are fascinated with royalty and monarchy (whatever it is.)
As for gar, spoonbill, and their ilk, we also have the giant
catfish. One recently died (in a local aquarium, over a hundred years old and about 150 lbs.) Caught in the river. I don't know if St. Louis still has the annual "Veiled Prophet Ball" at which or for which some one is crowned. In Ste. Genevieve, MO, and Prairie du Rocher, IL, there are annual balls held around the end of the year called La Guianne. Since both of these towns have French origins, the connection is obviously French; but the origins of the celebration are basically unknown. However, in the tradition, a cake is baked from a batter that contains four or five beans. The cake is sliced and divied out to the young women at the ball. The first woman who discovers a bean is crowned as the queen of the ball and she is allowed to chose a man as her consort for the evening festivities. As part of the tradition, mixed choirs roam the streets of the towns singing French songs similar to madrigals or English caroling although the songs are not necessarily Christian. Ste. Genevieve is considered by many to be then oldest city of European origin west of the Mississippi River. Prairie du Rocher is about 300 years old and had no Protestant church in its envirions until the 1960s. It is also the site of one of the earliest French forts in the upper Mississippi River Valley, Fort de Chartres. It has been the site of an annual Rendevous in the recent past. BTW, Ste. Genevieve is the home of a cured beef sausage of French origin that has been made by one family, the Oberles for a couple hundred years. My paternal grandfather and his family lived in Ste. Gen during the first three decades of the 1900s. He was a bridge carpenter for the Missouri-Illinois RR. He died in 1935. WHen I was growing up in Chester, IL, my grandmother and father introduced me to the pleasures of Oberle sausage. Today, whenever I am in the area, I always make a side-trip to Ste. Gen to buy some Oberle sausage. Got some just this past October.
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#183901 - 03/25/09 02:29 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: LukeJavan8]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3387
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
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As for gar, spoonbill, and their ilk, we also have the giant
catfish. One recently died (in a local aquarium, over a hundred years old and about 150 lbs.) Caught in the river.
Just hope it spend the better part of those hundred years in the river. When these big fishes turned up in this thread few days ago this movie passed on TV: Big Fish A bit of a chaotic fantasy movie, with Albert Finney doing Southern accent but the fish in question was a giant catfish, just as big as you and Etaoin describe. Huge!
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#183919 - 03/25/09 07:42 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: LukeJavan8]
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member
Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 106
Loc: USA, North Carolina
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I have not checked but Dubuque, Iowa, was founded in the 1600's
and (chuckle) is west of the Mississippi, on the west bank.
How old is Ste. Genevieve, MO?
I did a Google. I thought it was older than its website indicates. I thought it was at least as old as Prairie du Rocher, IL; and older than Chester, IL, which were both founded in the 1600s. Somewhere in one of my boxes, I have a history of the French Illinois Country, which included Cahokia, Fort de Chartres (Prairie du Rocher) and Kaskaskia, which are in present-day Illinois, Vincenes which is in present-day Indiana, and Ste. Genvieve, which is in present-day Missouri. According to Wikipedia, SG is *only* the oldest permanent European town in Missouri. So, my memory has served me wrong. "Sainte Genevieve, Missouri: Missouri's Most Historic Town While 1735 is celebrated as Ste. Genevieve's birth date, the village of Ste. Genevieve was established somewhere between 1722 and 1749. The first permanent European settlement in what now is the state of Missouri, the community was established as a trading outpost and was later settled by lead miners, farmers and fur traders. Before the Louisiana Purchase in 1803, the dominant architecture was French Creole with wooden homes built in several styles. Most of these homes feature galeries, or porches, surrounding the homes. These homes were gradually replaced by brick buildings as the American influence on the city took hold. Most of the earlier French structures are gone, but Ste. Genevieve holds the distinction of having the largest concentration of French Colonial buildings in the country. Three of these buildings - the Amoureux, the Bolduc, and the Guibourd-Valle houses - are open to the public. The Felix Valle Home is open to the public and demonstrates the effect of the American influence." These named houses are log "cabins" built in French style rather than American. Their logs are vertical rather than horizontal and are actually slabs rather than logs. Cahokia is located on the Illinois side of the Mississippi across from St. Louis. Do a Google on "Cahokia Mounds."
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#184138 - 04/05/09 07:46 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: LukeJavan8]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 12381
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Wikipedia seems to be fairly reliable in first settlement dates. the few I've checked out were areas first visited before 1600 but not permanently settled till much later. Santa Fe seems to have been formally founded in 1610.
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#184140 - 04/05/09 08:20 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: Faldage]
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member
Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 106
Loc: USA, North Carolina
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Seems like there should be some cities in the southwest that would be older but I don't really know a good way to find out without a lot of guessing. I did check Los Angeles and, although the first Europeans were there in 1542 no settlement was started until 1769. According to a number of books I have read, Los Angeles began as a sailing "station" where cattle hides were cured so that they could be transported to other parts of the world to be made into leather products. A semi-permanent village grew up around the "industry" as workers brought to the station by the sailing vessels remained ashore to process the hides. A couple of Louis L'Amour novels also substantiate this info. Ha!
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#184150 - 04/06/09 01:38 AM
Re: French place names
[Re: PastorVon]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 08/27/02
Posts: 2031
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
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A couple of Louis L'Amour novels also substantiate this info. Ha! I in an interview he said that he did a lot of research to have facts right for his books: routes, water holes, settlements etc.
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#184157 - 04/06/09 07:33 AM
Re: French place names
[Re: PastorVon]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 12381
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]
According to a number of books I have read, Los Angeles began as a sailing "station" where cattle hides were cured so that they could be transported to other parts of the world to be made into leather products. A semi-permanent village grew up around the "industry" as workers brought to the station by the sailing vessels remained ashore to process the hides. A couple of Louis L'Amour novels also substantiate this info. Ha! Any dates? Cattle hides suggests a fairly late date.
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#184158 - 04/06/09 08:16 AM
Re: French place names
[Re: Faldage]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/24/02
Posts: 6595
Loc: Vermont
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Any dates? Cattle hides suggests a fairly late date. yeah, the first few dates were probably something like flowers and candy.
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#184173 - 04/06/09 07:47 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: tsuwm]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 12/01/00
Posts: 12381
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#184176 - 04/06/09 09:35 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: Faldage]
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member
Registered: 12/30/08
Posts: 106
Loc: USA, North Carolina
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]
According to a number of books I have read, Los Angeles began as a sailing "station" where cattle hides were cured so that they could be transported to other parts of the world to be made into leather products. A semi-permanent village grew up around the "industry" as workers brought to the station by the sailing vessels remained ashore to process the hides. A couple of Louis L'Amour novels also substantiate this info. Ha! Any dates? Cattle hides suggests a fairly late date. The pueblo of Los Angeles was founded in September 1781 at a site about 20 miles northeast of San Pedro Bay where the cattle industry L'Amour referred to was located. The site was first visited by a Spanish explorer in the late 1500s who noted that it would be very suitable for a town; but no settlement was established there until 1781. I don't recall if L'Amour indicated dates. One of his books in which Los Angelos is referred to, I believe, is "Lonesome Gods."
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#184185 - 04/07/09 08:21 AM
Re: French place names
[Re: PastorVon]
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Pooh-Bah
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 2270
Loc: R'lyeh
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FWIW, here's ( link) a list of cities in North America with their foundation dates.
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#184190 - 04/07/09 01:22 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: zmjezhd]
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Carpal Tunnel
Registered: 06/23/06
Posts: 3387
Loc: Netherlands, the Hague
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#184216 - 04/09/09 12:39 PM
Re: French place names
[Re: zmjezhd]
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old hand
Registered: 06/23/08
Posts: 830
Loc: Land of Flat River
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FWIW, here's ( link) a list of cities in North America with their foundation dates. Very interesting, thanks for taking the time to research.
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